My workplace complies with Fire regs and has many extinguishers positioned in the correct areas around the workplace, however my Question is, as no training is provided in using them, and the guidance on evacuations states to leave the building straight away, what would happen if a member of staff decided to put out the fire themselves and then got themselves into difficulties?

Who would be responsible for their actions?
The employee?
The employer?
Or the Owner of the property?

I hope you can understand the point i am trying to make, why supply and fit extinguishers, if you provide no training and expect the staff to vacate immediately?
Surely by providing no training and putting equipment in the workplace the Owner/Employer could be putting themselves in a difficult position, if a member of staff decided to be a hero.

And i am aware that extinguishers by law need to be installed and regularly inspected, but why bother if they will never be used?

How many people work in the location?.

I would be alarmed that there is no designated Fire Marshall / Warden who should of received training, not only in FE use but in Emergency Evacuation procedures.

What information is contained within the Fire risk assessment regarding the company procedures?

Thanks for the replies so far.
It is heavy and thats why i put started the thread.
we have fully trained fire marshalls, but they are not trained in how to use a fire extinguisher, they are trained in how to vacate a area, however they would not attempt to stop somebody using an extinguisher, they would report that a person was still in the building, so they wont put themselves at risk.

I honestly do not think that any members of staff would stay behind and try to extinguish a fire, but as you would do with a RA, I have highlighted the potential risk, and would like to know the consequences if no training was provided.

I have just found out that some extinguisher training did take place over 3 years ago, and many of the staff who were trained have since left the company.
i have requested the list and have asked for refresher training to be implemented.
How long should it be before someone needs re-training?

I don't know if my experience at work helps, but here it is.


We train members of staff, particularly those who will be assisting in an evacuation, in the use of fire extinguishers. But we also stress that we don't want them to use them for a variety of reasons, namely;


It is unlikely that they would have seen the fire start and so cannot be 100% sure of its nature (Yes, you can see paper burning, but what ignited it? Chemicals? Faulty electrical device?) there is a very real danger of the fire not being what it appears and the wrong extinguisher being used.


The fire extinguishers are along the escape routes and by the fire doors, the fire will as often as not, be in another part of the building, and is unlikely to be compromising both the primary and secondary route out. To retrieve one for use, you are heading towards, and then retreating from, a safe area.


By the time a person has retrieved the fire extinguisher, and even if they have the right one, which they will need to check, the fire will have grown. Much better to get out and leave it to the professionals to deal with.


Our advice is this, if your life does not depend on you using a extinguisher, then don't.

Sean,

We are in a similar situation in that we had conducted 'practical' extinguisher training some years ago, but following a rapid expansion and high turnover we went from about 20 out of 30 trained to 10 out of 70.

Technically we still comply with the RRO as we provide training in the form of a PC package which include (in addition to all the basics) how to use an extinguisher and the key factors, ie is it safe to do so, clear escape route etc. Personally I don't think this is a substitute for 'hands on' (not necessarily working on a real fire) training, but at present its all we have to go on.

The main risk here is clearly defending whether or not the training was adequate. We operate with some 'nasties' like solvents and chemicals and consequently have a higher level of detection extensive coverage of equipment, we also operate a 'get out' policy but i still feel the hands on training is the better option. Maybe in lower risk environments the interactive package would be wholly adequate?

Hi,
We used to provide 2-3 hour fire safety training for all staff and this included a 30 min hands-on session letting off extinguishers. To my mind staff are not fire fighters and even with training if they don’t feel confident should not be required to use extinguishers. We advised that if the fire was bigger than a waste paper bin, one extinguisher was not enough, smoke was affecting breathing, if you couldn’t see the way out, gas cylinders or chemicals were involved, your efforts were not reducing the size of the fire or you were unsure of what to do and/or had not been trained then don’t tackle the fire. However if you were unfortunate enough to be trapped then using a fire extinguisher could obviously be life saving. Having said that in a former role I did rush to the scene of a fire when I heard it go up and then used two extingushers to put it out largely because it was my experiment and I feared the consequences for my job, in that sort of situation your actions are often instinctive.
Steve

Hi,
In response to Chris my point was that even after regular training I reacted instinctively although if I had felt at risk I'd have made my escape. I think the training we received annual and using extinguishers on a real fire, it was a long time ago we used to be able to light fires then (now I think its only at Chorley or Moreton-in-Marsh). But I still think training is a must although some staff, including yours truly, will have a go when perhaps they shouldn't.
Steve

Ok there’s a lot to read here but please take the time as hopefully it will prove useful.

I think the first thing is not to get obsessed with fire extinguishers the likely hood of being in the position of having to fight a fire is very unlikely for the average employee. We should be focusing on the prevention of fire or ensuring if a fire does start we have ensured we have maximum chance of getting out of the building safely. Which comes to the boring bit no one is interested in, YES it means ensuring fire doors are kept closed that we aren't overloading sockets we know where our alternative escape routes are, were, not blocking those escape exits etc etc. this is the boring bit that everyone walks past every day and turns a blind eye to but his is the stuff that will make sure you can escape from a building not whether you are a demon with a fire extinguisher.

So Ok fire extinguishers are important more fires are extinguished with a fire extinguisher Than by the fire service (strange but true). Let’s start with the fact that the choice of fire extinguishers available to you has already been made so you probably only have the choice of 2-3 in most office environments.

Co2= can be used on flammable or electrical fires surprisingly 99% of times it's there for electrical fires, Computer, monitors, printers etc

Next

Foam or water= it' s mainly been selected for use on solid materials, paper, cardboard, wood etc.

So as you can see in the average office you are only likely to get 2 classes of fire electrical and solid (class A)

Fire extinguishers are not complicated to operate, standing with one in your hand with a fire in front of you then yes they are complicated. Walk over to a fire extinguisher NOW and read what is written on them the instruction are straight forward and simple and each will tell you what class of fire it can be used BUT it's important to know NOW not when faced with a fire situation.

How often should training be again this will be dependent on the size and hazards at your company? My view is once a year as standard with fire drills twice a year but if you work in a hazardous environment then the level and frequency of training would be a lot higher. these days we can all operate i phones use email add attachments operate the coffee machine which are all complex tasks that we have had to learn to use so why does a fire extinguisher pose such an issue to so many, even with the instruction and pictorials on the equipment itself

Failing to be able to operate an extinguisher isn't what leads to deaths or serious injuries in the workplace, It's people failing to respond in time to fire alarms, Fire doors being wedged open, fire exits being blocked or not knowing an alternative route and people failing to respond to the situation in time fire can spread quickly given the right conditions.

Next time you have a fire drill you want to be one of the first out of the building because if you are last then you might not make it at all in a real situation. Bylaw you company must provide training but why not go looking for information yourself there are lots of video clips and information on the internet you just need to look don't leave it to someone else to give you that information get it yourself

Now go and read the instructions on the fire extinguisher in your office NOW.

The advice I got at Lancashire Fire Brigade's training centre was an unequivocal Don't Train unless e.g. your insurers insist. Tell staff to evacuate as they are very poor at judging when a fire is out of control.

P

The fact that you have extinguishers on your premises does mean that you must provide some sort of information to staff. it might be that they are not to use them unless specifically trained. But there is a risk that someone will want to be a hero and try to use one without any training. Fire extinguishers should only be used in the very early stages of a fire (within seconds not minutes)and the guidance of anything bigger than a waste paper bin is I believe a fair one.

Again prevention is the priority rather than getting hung up about fire extinguishers. if you are left having to use a fgire extinguisher then a lot of other things have failed to put someone or the company in that situation.

Phil

It's not a new issue or discussion whether to train staff or not train staff, whether to have fire extinguishers in the workplace or to totally remove them. I guess at the day no one single person is right or wrong at the end of the day it is what you or your company are happy with as advice for your staff, as this well might be something you have to justify in court like any other H&S matter.

I believe tackling a fire in its early stages is within the capability of everyone as well as the ability to make the decision when it is unsafe to do so and this is where good information plays it part where no information is likely to do more harm.

The advice always if you don’t know what you are doing or unsure of tackling the fire then GET OUT failing to tackle a fire shouldn’t result in the loss of life or serious injury other systems are in place to prevent this and it’s these other systems we should ensure are in place every day which everyone can carry out or be responsible for.

I can tell from your statements that you already know the answers. i just find that people shy away from fire extinguishers as these suspecious things that hang on the wall and your not really supposed to go near.

I'm saying look for information now rather than when it matters and this is what your company should be providing. i could sit here an do a full training course on fire safety with all the important safety issue which you have identified. But unfortunately i charge for that not a lot as i want to make it affordable for all companies and hopefully employees get the best training i can give.

But again it's not only just about fire extinguishers (if not more) is about fire prevention. Which everyone can be responsible for from the cleaner to the managing director.

I am always intrigued by the phrase "training" in the use of a fire extinguisher.

How on earth can the average organisation replicate how a fire will take hold in their environment, & the complexities of spread, etc.?

Standing in a car park & aiming a water extinguisher into a wastebin filled with paper may be a fun activity, but it cannot in anyway recreate what a real fire is like.

I used to assist in the training of extinguishing natural gas fires, using very expensive and realistic scenarios which did recreate what a gas engineer could face - I was relatively happy about that.

What I am less comfortable with is giving a false sense of security to "trained" staff, & therefore whilst we do give some of our employees an appreciation of how & why they work, the edict is to not use one unless it is absolutely necessary to get out of a building.

The final sentence is the reason why training is so important. If properly trained the individual will know the type/size of fire to tackle, and with what extinguisher - or to leave alone. Without training this decision cannot be made.

Nice idea in theory - the practicality is not as easy as you suggest.

Think of a care home - would you evacuate immediately for a small wastepaper basket fire?

Would you abandon a ship for the same?

In a steelworks at what point is the normal hot work not in control?

Too simplistic an answer - that is the point of risk assessing and appropriate training.

That is really the issue and where the common sense comes in. You simply CANNOT have a blanket approach that states 'on finding any fire immediately evacuate' in a one-size-fits-all approach. A small fire in a kitchen, for example (not uncommon) can easily be dealt with, yet everyone running from the building is unrealistic.

So the point which I've mentioned - along with many others - already in this thread is that a Risk Assessment needs to be done and any training needs that fall from that must be realistic and not be a box-ticking exercise that may say 'we evacuate everyone on finding a fire, so we do not need to provide Fire Extinguisher training'

Phil the subject was about fire extinguishers so I'm not sure everyone is getting obsessed about it. The issue has always been a hot potato on this forum.

I don't agree with your view that extinguisher training is secondary. It is a life saving piece of equipment, it should be equal in importance to other training.

Zyygy I think that your approach is misguided. In most modern larger premises, including shops, offices and hotels we have a coincidence fire alarm system (double knock) where the general workforce/members of the public are not even aware of the fire alarm operating. The first stage alarm alerts specific people who will investigate a fire without causing a general alarm or initiating immediate evacuation. I'd be willing to bet you have been in a shopping mall when the fire alarm went off without you ever knowing. Did you ever feel threatened?

Farrell I'm not sure that the fire at Bradford resulted in a delayed evacuation. Those nearest to it moved away. The problem was that people did not realise how quickly a well ventilated fire with plenty of fuel could grow and so never perceived any threat in what was a relatively open space. They certainly tried to evacuate as soon as they realised but the exits were not usable.

As for fires in tall buildings, is it the right procedure to evacuate the entire building for a small bin fire on the top floor. Would you really evacuate Canary Wharf or the Tower 42 (Natwest Tower). I think not.

Phil it is a public forum. I accessed this forum on many occasions when I was in the middle east where high rise buildings are the norm.

My comment only came about after another posters comments about evacuating canary warf for a waste paper bin fire as they said originally they wouldn't evacuate the building on discovering a fire. Correctly no you wouldn't evacuate the whole of canary warf for a waste paper bin fire on the top floor.

All I'm saying is lets keep the discussion in context. So on discovering a fire in a building with 2 floors and 60 people worked in that building then yes i would evacuate the building.

If i was in the middle east and the building had 120 floors then no i would not evacuate the whole building on discovering a waste paper bin fire on the 119th floor