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I recently bought some bedroom furniture from IKEA, i am quite fit but really struggled firstly removing the articles from the racking, then putting them in my car, and then walking them up two stories to my bedroom.
I am sure IKEA probably have "Disclaimers" all over their shop, but i was thinking how do they get away with it?
Surely it is a manual handling issue, and what would happen if a member of the public got injured in their warehouse or carrying the heavy items afterwards??
Your thoughts please, just hope im not asking a stupid question!
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??? Just ask for assistance in the store ??? It's that simple.
At home that is your affair not the company.
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Sorry if this seems to be stating the obvious but I usually seek out a store assistant to help me while inside the store. I think there are instructions like this in most stores anyway.
Once at home I normally enlist my wife or a friend if the items are or too heavy or bulky to move on my own.
I've recently bought a trolley to deal with the enormous bales of sawdust that my daughter gets for her rabbits.
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GeoffB4 wrote:??? Just ask for assistance in the store ??? It's that simple.
At home that is your affair not the company. Beat me to it!
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Sean,
IMHO - Whilst on IKEA's premises HSWA section 3 probably applies - protecting visitors. Most visitors are accompanied by a partner ergo they preseum for the heavier items team lifting to take place. Where a person is on their own then common sense should dictate that a request for assistance be not unreasonable which should include help loading heavy items to a car provided its their car park.
Badger
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Have you ever shopped in IKEA? I doubt it very much, you cant find a shop assisstant for love or money!
However i do understand and accept your point of view.
What i was really after though was the implications if something went wrong on their premises, or whilst loading HEAVY items into your car.
And i do mean heavy, god knows what they make their furniture out of!!
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...request a copy of the manual handling policy and procedures,?
I have been to the one near leeds and they were very helpful
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Most of the packaging has the weight indicated and if it is a two person lift, so they are giving you the information.
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Maybe i am wording this wrongly??
All i am trying to establish is what would be the consequences if somebody had an accident whilst lifting furniture??
I am not saying IKEA are not helpful, and i agree the weights are on the boxes, however do you honestly think that all the general public understand weights etc....
Ciaran, where are you??
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I would think ..they probably have enough procedures in place stating that customers shouldnt lift furniture they have information on the furniture as alraedy staed..the only way that consequences would be established was if some one was to injure them selfs...
so its back to what signs and procedures they have in place regarding customers lifting furniture
and i know that doesnt answer your question sean.. but should go soeway to getting and answer
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I think this is a good question. I had a bad back over Xmas and I bought a very heavy stack of shelves - I think weighing about 35Kg. So I asked an IKEA employee to help. I think he may have been maintenance rather than a shop assistant. Anyway, instead of helping he simply marched ahead in a Macho way stooping over and lifting up the entire package by himself with everything wrong about his manual handling practice.
This is what bugs me about asking for help - not just IKEA but lots of shops. If I do it myself, at least I try to do it properly using the techniques taught on various manual handling courses. However, shop assistants hardly ever seem to do it right. I don't want a 16 year old lad injuring himself on my account - just because his employer has not taught or drummed into him the importance of proper manual handling technique.
Sorry a slight tangent to your question, but thought I would just through this in to the debate.
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Just to go off at another tangent, I've always found Ikea's traffic systems to be the work of the devil.
I tend to use the Nottingham store. At the exit, barriers prevent you taking the trolley beyond a relatively small paved area. You then have to fetch your car and reverse up to load. At busy periods I've seen several near misses in this area as customers fight for the spaces. Tempers do seem to be frayed at this point - all part of the Ikea experience.
The newer Milton Keynes store allows you to take the trolleys out to your car. Seems to work much better.
It is a couple of years since my last visit to either store so things may have changed now.
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Praise the lord for Buzzlightyear!!
I honestly think there are lots of consequences to this procedure.
i.e box says two people to handle or lift, that doesnt stop an accident, or mean that two older people are able to lift the item?
I dont expect IKEA to give manual handling training to every customer, so thats why i am asking the question, what are the implications if someone has an accident in their store, or outside loading and unloading heavy items??
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It all boils down to what have Ikea done in their risk assessment for manual handling and have they addressed the issue of customers lifting items (have they all that is reasonable practicable). I echo earlier comments that various items have weights written on them, I have even seen that weights off items are printed out on labels pasted on racking, including telling you to seek assistance if the items are too heavy. As for when you have purchased the item and on the way out to load your own car it have thought that it would be your problem as you now own that item, and you have accepted that risk.
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sean wrote:Praise the lord for Buzzlightyear!!
I honestly think there are lots of consequences to this procedure.
i.e box says two people to handle or lift, that doesnt stop an accident, or mean that two older people are able to lift the item?
I dont expect IKEA to give manual handling training to every customer, so thats why i am asking the question, what are the implications if someone has an accident in their store, or outside loading and unloading heavy items?? Good god Sean people have tried to answer your question in every possible way possible. Ikea give the weight of the item on the package and advice to seek assistance or if it might require a 2 person lift. If you want to find out go lift something in there store that is to heavy and injure yourself then try to sue and a judge will decide if they have done enough. I believe they have given signage to warn of dangers or risks and offer assistance if required. i guess if people want to ignore advice and assistance offered and then injure themselves then they have to take some responsibility for it. as for getting the item indoors you could always open up the boxes and take the item out in few numbers rather than trying to carry the whole box. maybe if you don't have some form of common sense then you shouldn't consider buying flat pack furniture in the first place. or may be you should undertake an assembly test before they allow you to enter the store. Lol Phil
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Thanks Phil for your constructive advice!! And for the record i did empty the box and take it up bit by bit!
Dont know what my problem is today i just dont seem able to get my point across??
I do agree with all the comments made and with the precautions that IKEA have taken, oh i give up!!
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There are companies that will deliver the goods from the shop and there are even companies that will come to your house and assemble the thing for you too.
For telling it like it is... there's Phil
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Is that a promise Lol.
i think you want somebody to tell you what would happen if someone injured themselves lifting something to heavy in an ikea store. that fact is none of use are judges and it would be for the court to decide if ikea done every thing reasonable practicable which in my view they have. They provide equipment to move the loads have signage giving the weight of the items they offer assistance when lifting an item. I guess if you think you are going to need assistance when buying a heavy item then allow extra time in store to get assistance take another person with you or get them to deliver to your door or shop else where.
if you can suggest more that they can do that is reasonable practicable Sean then i guess there would be a position where you would win in court if they have to to do what is reasonable practicable.
Or is everyone who has responded misunderstanding what you are trying to get at.
Phil
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To be truthful i wasnt thinking about prosecution or making a claim, i was more thinking along the lines of breaking the HASWA, thats what i am trying to get at....... I think!!
Because even loading your car is on their premises, do you get me??
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you beat my posting Mick. i believe that everybody should have a certain amount of common sense by the time they reach adulthood. Things that tell us that it's not a good idea to cross the road without looking both ways. how to walk down stairs without the need to jump the last 5 steps. This we learn through being told by an adult or learning the hard way.
If by the time you reach adulthood you still cross the road without looking both ways then natural selection hasn't taken place. lol
Everybody should have common sense even when trying something new to be able to weigh up the risks and making an informed decision with the information given to them whether something is safe or not safe.
So if a store has given information on the weight of an item, you've seen that item assembled in the store so you now the size and shape and possible you may be able to judge if that is going to be heavy or light. then then also to tell you to seek assistance when moving the item, they also provide a piece of equipment to transport that item from the store warehouse to your car then i don't see what other information they can provide to allow you to make a common sense decision to totally ignore that information.
If they didn't provide the weight of the item offer somebody to assist or provide any equipment to allow you to transport that item fro the store warehouse to your car then yes i think you would be right to be able to sue over an injury.
Phil
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Phil, I surrender, promise!!!
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Ask them to assist you with loading or take somebody else. if they refuse then return the items and shop else where where they would assist you. i would imagine they have maximum limits on the weight of each package to keep it within the limits of a two person lift. As occasionally you do see item that are assembled from two packages. i would have thought it unlikely to get many item above 32kg.
Which specific part of the HSAWA act are you referring to.
Phil
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This has turned into an interesting thread - sorry if I misunderstood the question in the first place.
As another poster has said the ultimate test of whether a store has done enough will unfortunately be tested in court and even then there is no certainty that the result will be either consistent or sensible.
I would expect that stores would consider accident and claims history in determining if their measures are reasonable in the circumstances. There will of course by a balance of cost involved
To an extent this question lies at the crux of the current dilemma of the balance between individual common sense and how much an organisation has to do to protect people from themselves.
Funniest thing I've seen recently is a guy who bought a load of fence panels in a closing down sale then realised there was no way they would fit in his car ...
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Consider the question from the opposing perspective. What haven't they done?
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Mick Noonan wrote:Consider the question from the opposing perspective. What haven't they done? My thoughts exactly as i said above "if you can suggest more that they can do that is reasonable practicable Sean then i guess there would be a position where you would win in court if they have to to do what is reasonable practicable." I don't see a lot else they can do other than have someone escort you around the store or provide manual handling training to every customer before they could remove an item from the shelf. But what then happens if someone happens to have an accident assembling the furniture is it Ike's fault for not ensuring that you have the appropriate skills to assemble such furniture. There was a similar argument on selling or hiring items like chainsaws to normal members of the public should there be some form of training to ensure members of the public know how to operate such equipment and have the appropriate safety equipment? Phil
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Too much time and far too anal, it is no wonder people who are relatively new to H&S would be apprehensive about posting a question on Iosh forums.
Poor Sean has been villified for asking what may have sounded a "stupid" question to some folk, but my guess is he is new to the industry and is trying to make some sense of H&S theory and legislation by making comparisons to multinational companies policy, and instead of being gently guided he is slated!
Shame on you Philbeale or Ian Beale or maybe Pauline Fowler, it is attitudes like that which stigmatises H&S and chips away confidence of newbies!
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I don't think i slated sean i have tried answering his question in every way possible and are more than willing to discuss further. some of my my comments are made in jest but due to the fact the site has no smiles i have to revert back to using LOL whan i can. i often post on this site and other as and believe i help anyone and everyone.
As for the reference to character on EastEnders how very original and some might say childish (but of course i wouldn't as i have sense of humour and can see how funny you are) lol
If you feel you can answer Sean's question why not have a go rather than having a go at those that can be bothered to have try and answer. If someone has the correct answer then i will be more than happy to read it but i feel i have answered his question the best as i can.
if i came across incorrectly then i apologise to sean but in all the answers i have given i have tried to answer the question or the reason why no-one can give a definitive answer to his question.
Phil
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I dont think I need to provide input to the question, it was covered pretty much before the mental capacity questioning began!
Again all posters may not be as experienced or advanced in H&S as someone so mentally attuned as yourself, so maybe try exercising some consideration before flexing those legisaltive pecs again! lol lol
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If your referring to my post at 13.01 that was general comment and not specifically directed at a question or person. i believe everyone one should be able to use a certain amount of common sense in every day life to problem solve for themselves rather than having to rely on H&S to protect ourselves on what are everyday common occurrences.
I'm the last one ever to quote legislation or regs and would rather give answer than refer someone to legislation or guidance as that doesn't help answer the question just add confusion as often the regs are even more confusing.
If I have caused upset then i apologise but i try to help other members rather than just asking questions on the forum and not giving something back.
Phil or is it Ian lol
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As the Manual Handling Regs do not apply to members of the public then there would be no requirements from those in my view, though it is obviously good for the public also that weights are marked on the products.
So far as the HASWA is concerned it would not (again in my view) apply to handling activities unless there were also failures to do with stacking for example, or the packages fell onto someone, or there was a floor defect/trip hazard. Otherwise I cannot see any particular liability.
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Sean
For what it's worth, I believe the answer to your question is:
a) If the package/heavy weight fell on you in the store (depending on the circumstances, e.g unsafe storage of product) IKEA may be in breach of s3 HASAWA (plus likely civil liability).
b) If IKEA have weight markings/signs saying 'ask for assistance,' provide trolleys for customers, etc and you injured your back manually handling the pack in the store, IKEA are unlikely to be liable - s3 would not apply.
c) Similarly, if you inured yourself loading it into your car in the car park, again s3 wouldn't apply.
d) If one of their vehicles however, ran you over in the car park, then again s3 may apply!
Essentially, what governs your scenario is 'work and workplace' i.e. the Health and Safety at Work Act limiting their duty to customers (non-employees) on their premises affected by what they do or don't do (acts or omissions).
Fortunately, there is no Health and Safety at Home Act - but give the EU time...
I hope this helps.
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sean wrote:Praise the lord for Buzzlightyear!!
quote]
Please explain.
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DIY stores owe the public in general and their customers (and staff) in particular a duty of care. If they breach that duty by making their products too heavy for a reasonable person to lift or failing to offer assistance or failing to give adequate warning, and that breach then causes harm...
that's negligence, regardless of any HASAWA or MHRegulations.
Of course, the proof would be determined by a court. However, if a claim were to be made against the DIY shop allegeing negligence, the shop (or their insurer) may choose to avoid a costly court defence and settle, providing the case is sufficiently strong.
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I dont reply often , but I had to here.
Goodness ...... Dont shop at IKEA then!
IKEA, B&Q ASDA TESCO et all - they all have notices posted telling you if the item is heavy, ask for assistance.
So if its too heavy - dont lift it - get help.
If you ask, they will lift it into your car for you.
If you dont want furniture which you have to build yourself - Go to a furniture store like John Lewis or somewhere who delivers and assembles the stuff... and charges a premium for doing so.
The IKEA Braehead store near Glasgow have removed the barrier system so you can get the trolley to your car with no issue.
I shop at IKEA bcause I get reasonably good furniture, at a fair price, but I have bought from other outlets, and got the same style of furniture, but it cost me more.
Its this kind of enquiry that makes my hair stand, as there is usually a claim at the end of it.
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I think my first response answered it all - you know the one right at the beginning!
Sean, why don't you just write your own answer as you don't seem to be very impressed with most of those you got. Quite surprised though how much time people are prepared to spend on this - including me, I thought I knew better.
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sean wrote: oh i give up!! Yes please, that would be good
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sean wrote:I recently bought some bedroom furniture from IKEA, i am quite fit but really struggled firstly removing the articles from the racking, then putting them in my car, and then walking them up two stories to my bedroom.
I am sure IKEA probably have "Disclaimers" all over their shop, but i was thinking how do they get away with it?
Surely it is a manual handling issue, and what would happen if a member of the public got injured in their warehouse or carrying the heavy items afterwards??
Your thoughts please, just hope im not asking a stupid question! I did a quick R/A for the scenario, Sean. I would get someone from IKEA to remove the articles from the racking, place them on a trolley and use the mechanical aid to get the bedroom furniture through the checkout. Ask at checkout if you could have assistance taking the item to the back of your car. Once there, lift the item carefully into the back of your car. Drive home and ask the wife or a neighbour for assistance carrying the box into your house. Then, remove the pieces from the box and carry them upstairs in comfortable amounts. Finally, give the wife instructions telling her "I'll be home at six. Have that bedroom furniture finished"
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Morning all,
Firstly i really didnt expect so much turmoil to be caused by my question!
Andyblue, thanks for trying to come to my aid, but i can assure you i have a lot of H&S training, maybe not up to the level of many IOSH members, but enough to have Tech status. but i appreciate your efforts.
Philbeale, there is no need to apologise, at no stage did i feel offended by your comments or anyone elses, its a forum for discussion and i really enjoy reading all the questions, even the ones i have no training or experience on, i actually like it when two or more experts disagree and air their views.
Buzzlightyear, the praise the lord comment was made because i felt you understood what i meant, no offence was meant, in fact the opposite.
Thank you all for all your replies, even though i have enough training, i still think it was a good question, and that has been proven by the amount of comprehensive replies i have received.
Cheers
Sean
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sean wrote:
... what would happen if a member of the public got injured in their warehouse or carrying the heavy items afterwards??
Your thoughts please, just hope im not asking a stupid question!
Sean I believe what you may be looking for is, is it RIDDOR reportable (before you gave up)? This would be a grey area as to customer would not necessarily report the injury to the shop and like wise the shop not being aware of the injury. Before anyone asks I'm thinking a 3 day injury to back. Badger
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Oh wad some power the giftie gie us.
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