Rank: Forum user 
|
Hello to all,
I work in a medium sized manufacturing site made up of offices manufacturing area and a warehouse area.
I have been asked to carry out a fire risk assessment for each department on site, at the last place I worked we had an excellent checklist that asked all the correct questions, and forced the user to complete the risk assessment it was very user friendly and anyone could carry out the risk assessment
I was wondering whether anyone knew where I could get hold of such a template s that I could carry out the assessment?
Our building it brand new less than two years old so it complies with all the lastest building regulations. Rather than me recreating the wheel it would be helpful if I had a generic template that I could then tailor to our site
Any help appreciated
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
You could always try your local Fire Service website, they may have a template you can use. ( I have used Notts fire brigade template for a few years now).
IMHO technical fire safety officers who may have occasion to visit you will recognise this document as their own and be familiar with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Is this a one page document?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Mersey wrote:Is this a one page document?
Hi Mersey,
If it is, it doesn't sound like it would be suitable for the application you have described. If you drop me a pm I'll send you a copy of the template I use.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
I rarely find a fire risk assessment checklist that asks all the correct questions, in fact I don't think I have ever found one. If you find it let me have a copy too please.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
In that case Shaun, I'd like a copy of yours.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
You couldn't afford it Geoff
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
it may be me but i would be a little concerned for someone carrying out a FRA on such a large premises who appears to have little experience especially when they plan on doing the FRA by department rather than building. The fact the FRA will only be good as the document is a bit worrying i think a more experienced eye is required.
Phil
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
I've been waiting for someone to agree with rather than being the first critical one myself. Phil you are correct in what you say, so is Shaun.
There are some very recent prosecutions regarding poor fire risk assessment, most following fires occurring in premises that have been risk assessed.
I have recently been communicating with my PI insurer who confirmed to me that the result of a fire are much worse than other H&S issues and that is why PI insurance for fire risk assessors costs more.
Mersey, perhaps you could check with your company insurer regarding your competence for fire risk assessment and let us know if they are happy for you to carry on?
In my experience it is better to produce the check sheet/questionnaire yourself as that enables a better understanding of what is required. Read the COP as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Now repeat the mantra.................
A FRA can be carried out by anyone.......its not rocket science........follow the CLG guidance notes...........nothing to it.........etc etc.....................yawn
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: New forum user
|
You should make sure you use PAS 79 2007 this now is the BSI standard for fire risk assessments and is very comprhensive
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
howlette wrote:You should make sure you use PAS 79 2007 this now is the BSI standard for fire risk assessments and is very comprhensive
Colin would be the first to admit it aint a standard and in actual fact the checklist at annex A is hardly comprehensive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
howlette wrote:You should make sure you use PAS 79 2007 this now is the BSI standard for fire risk assessments and is very comprhensive
BSI Standard? Please explain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
ChrisBurns wrote:howlette wrote:You should make sure you use PAS 79 2007 this now is the BSI standard for fire risk assessments and is very comprhensive
BSI Standard? Please explain.
British Standards Institution
This is the standard i work to to and find that there is little that it leaves out. especially when compared to other versions or templates i have seen on the internet or other FRA use a lot seem to use the fire service college version but I'm not keen on this version and find a lot of information would be missed by using it. At the end of the day a FRA needs to be appropriate to the premises, a document fro a corner shop is going to be a lot different for a 300 bedroom hotel both in detail and complexity.
Wasn't there recently a change to the RRFSO stating that employers could not force employees to carry out FRA if they lacked training or experience. i wouldn't attempt to carry out an asbestos survey even thou i have some understanding of what is involved i recognise when i need to turn to an expert in the field and recognise my own limitations i think as H&S bods if you take on something where you have limited knowledge then you should understand the consequences of what might happen when things go belly up.
My advice to the original poster if you want to carry out a fire risk assessment then have a go at one building then maybe look at getting the document reviewed by someone qualified before you carry out the FRA for the whole site.
Phil
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
I always use my own "template" that has been developed over many years and redesigned to comply with the many changes in legislation since the fire precautions workplace regs came out. It had also been adapted to fit most, if not all premises that I fra.
I have studied PAS 79 and found it wanting in certain areas but I have introduced some of that document into my own.
I would hope that I can continue using mine in spite of any attempt to force me to use another as that may not come up to my own high standard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Chris. I am in the same position as you as I too cannot get that excited about PAS79 so instead have devised my own FRA template.
When I was an Inspecting Officer, I collected dozens (about 40 ish) of FRA designs from various companies and cobbled together what I believe is a version which nicks all the best bits from my collection. That's not to say I got it right straight away as I am on version 5 at the moment.
And will I share it? Sorry, but I refer you to Shaun McKeever's excellent answer some posts ago!
PAS 79 may well have it's failings, but have you seen some of the useless versions some fire authorities give away on their websites? (and the DCLG version). Worse than useless.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Messey, yes I have seen them, they all IMO of course, expect the user to have a working knowledge of fire risk assessment and so be competent.
If you do not have any knowledge of fra it would be very dangerous indeed to attempt a fra and expect it to be suitable and sufficient.
I believe that if you are competent you will not be asking for such basic assistance as the template.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Smurf your inbox is full and my pm keeps getting rejected
I'll keep trying to send
Safety Smurf wrote:Mersey wrote:Is this a one page document?
Hi Mersey,
If it is, it doesn't sound like it would be suitable for the application you have described. If you drop me a pm I'll send you a copy of the template I use.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Mersey wrote:
Smurf your inbox is full and my pm keeps getting rejected
I'll keep trying to send
Just emptied it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
ChrisBurns wrote:Messey, yes I have seen them, they all IMO of course, expect the user to have a working knowledge of fire risk assessment and so be competent.
If you do not have any knowledge of fra it would be very dangerous indeed to attempt a fra and expect it to be suitable and sufficient.
I believe that if you are competent you will not be asking for such basic assistance as the template.
Thats not the case at all, I wanted to save myself some time by not recreating the wheel and hoping that someone from the community would share information, why even comment on the subject if you got nothing constructive to say?
Your making it out to be rocket science which it aint. My industry is fairly bespoke and I'd consider myself more competent than any external Fire assessor when it comes to my industry as I know the plant inside out. Even though its a bespoke industry many hazards will be the same as other industries and I was hoping to get a decent generic template as a building block
Some people are really up their own backsides IMHO too
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
quote=Mersey] at the last place I worked we had an excellent checklist that asked all the correct questions, and forced the user to complete the risk assessment it was very user friendly and anyone could carry out the risk assessment
Mersey with respect to say "anyone could carry out the assessment" is nonsense and insulting to those who have made Fire safety their professional area of expertise.
Would you think "anyone" could carry out a COSHH assessment given a suitable template? Didn't think so. Why should fire be different?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Heather Collins wrote:quote=Mersey] at the last place I worked we had an excellent checklist that asked all the correct questions, and forced the user to complete the risk assessment it was very user friendly and anyone could carry out the risk assessment
Mersey with respect to say "anyone could carry out the assessment" is nonsense and insulting to those who have made Fire safety their professional area of expertise.
Would you think "anyone" could carry out a COSHH assessment given a suitable template? Didn't think so. Why should fire be different?
I refer you to my last comment FRA / COSHH / DSEAR are not rocket science, so stop trying to over egg your own importance. The industry could do without H&S snobbery by people who are wrapped up in their own self importance
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Mersey wrote:I refer you to my last comment FRA / COSHH / DSEAR are not rocket science, so stop trying to over egg your own importance. The industry could do without H&S snobbery by people who are wrapped up in their own self importance
And you're actually expecting anyone to help you after that little outburst? There really is no need to stoop to this kind of insulting comment when people ARE actually trying to give you some help. I shan't bother any further as clearly I am way too self-important.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Heather Collins wrote:Mersey wrote:I refer you to my last comment FRA / COSHH / DSEAR are not rocket science, so stop trying to over egg your own importance. The industry could do without H&S snobbery by people who are wrapped up in their own self importance
And you're actually expecting anyone to help you after that little outburst? There really is no need to stoop to this kind of insulting comment when people ARE actually trying to give you some help. I shan't bother any further as clearly I am way too self-important.
What help have you tried to give me other than imforming me that I am being disrepectful to other consultants? If thats the type of help you offer then stick it!
Don't bother I don't want any help from you at all, its you who initiated contact with me its there in black and white in the forums , you are full of your own self importance IMHO and have offered no help to me whatsoever, so nothing lost there. You have shown your true colours
On the other hand
Thank goodness other people on the forums are not so self obsessed,as I have had a great reponse form many poster who have been most helpful.I would like to say a big thank you I won't let the comments of the few stop me from helping others in the future
Best Regards
Mersey
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Gosh, someone did get out of bed the wrong side this morning didn't they?
I could well have gone on to offer you some help Mersey, but your sweeping statements have removed all desire for me to do so. Look back at my posting history and you will see that I do actually try to share knowledge with others on this forum. I believe it's one of the strong points of the forum and I'm certainly not one to belittle others or scoff at their (lack of) knowledge; we have all been there once and no-one knows everything. I constantly learn from the other posters on this forum and enjoy helping others when I can.
There has been a great deal of discussion on this forum recently about people carrying out FRA when they are not competent to do so. As a new user you may not have been aware of it, but my intent was simply to warn you that FRA is not the "easy tick box exercise" that you seem to think it is.
Your childish little outburst (aimed presumably at me) is so wide of the mark that I can only laugh at it and hope that those who actually do know me (unlike you who seem to have judged and sentenced on the basis of two posts on an internet forum!) will find it as silly as I do.
As for "initiating contact", I believe it was you who posted this thread, not me.
Now if we could stop the childish insults and get back to being professional that would be nice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Heather Collins wrote:Gosh, someone did get out of bed the wrong side this morning didn't they?
I could well have gone on to offer you some help Mersey, but your sweeping statements have removed all desire for me to do so. Look back at my posting history and you will see that I do actually try to share knowledge with others on this forum. I believe it's one of the strong points of the forum and I'm certainly not one to belittle others or scoff at their (lack of) knowledge; we have all been there once and no-one knows everything. I constantly learn from the other posters on this forum and enjoy helping others when I can.
There has been a great deal of discussion on this forum recently about people carrying out FRA when they are not competent to do so. As a new user you may not have been aware of it, but my intent was simply to warn you that FRA is not the "easy tick box exercise" that you seem to think it is.
Your childish little outburst (aimed presumably at me) is so wide of the mark that I can only laugh at it and hope that those who actually do know me (unlike you who seem to have judged and sentenced on the basis of two posts on an internet forum!) will find it as silly as I do.
As for "initiating contact", I believe it was you who posted this thread, not me.
Now if we could stop the childish insults and get back to being professional that would be nice.
What a hypocrite, me judging you from a couple of sentences? POT KETTLE BLACK, it was you who first picked a small sentence out of my original post and then made a sweeping statement declaring that I was being totally disrespectful to other consultants who have tried to make a living from this topic.
That's the first time I have had any type of correspondence with you and you make a sweeping statement like that?
Do me a favour don't bother contacting me again. Your help I can certainly do without
And Moderators in the event of even handiness if you are going to delete my comments can you please delete Miss Collins comments so there is a balanced argument
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
What are we missing with all these messages unable to see?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Things got a bit ugly between Mersey and Heather - to be honest I'm suprised the posts weren't pulled earlier (on the basis of knowing what the mods will and won't accept).
It's a shame that the fire questions are frequently the one's that degenerate into a cat fight.
Personally I think that you do not require extensive training to do a fire risk assessment on a basic premises. In that context there is nothing wrong with a checklist (although I think the ones issued by the fire authroities are woefully inadequate - I would expect prompts on what types of things to consider as an ignition risk etc).
In fact I use checklists for many things. Nothing wrong with prompts to remind you to cover areas and to let others know that you have considered those areas. The skill is in knowing when to think outside the box and knowing what the standard required is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
ChrisBurns wrote:Messey, yes I have seen them, they all IMO of course, expect the user to have a working knowledge of fire risk assessment and so be competent.
If you do not have any knowledge of fra it would be very dangerous indeed to attempt a fra and expect it to be suitable and sufficient.
I believe that if you are competent you will not be asking for such basic assistance as the template.
Mersey, you should go ahead with your FRA using a checklist to help. Why should you be put off by comments like the above when the government says differently?:
http://www.communities.g...requentlyaskedquestions/
"Can I do it myself?
Yes. We believe that in many cases, those with the responsibility for premises are likely to be best placed to maintain fire safety precautions and understand and address the risk to lives and property that fire represents to those working there or visiting.
Under the FSO, the duty to carry out and implement a fire risk assessment lies with the responsible person. Achieving fire safety is often a matter a common sense, and in many cases there may be no need for specialist or formal knowledge or training, providing the responsible person makes enough time available to go through all the necessary steps.
In carrying out a risk assessment, however the responsible person may decide that, given the nature of the premises or the people involved that, they do not have the necessary competence to discharge their duties under the FSO"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
redken wrote:
In carrying out a risk assessment, however the responsible person may decide that, given the nature of the premises or the people involved that, they do not have the necessary competence to discharge their duties under the FSO"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
PhilBeale wrote:redken wrote:
In carrying out a risk assessment, however the responsible person may decide that, given the nature of the premises or the people involved that, they do not have the necessary competence to discharge their duties under the FSO"
I quite agree with you Redken but the last bit is the most important bit. I don't know Mersey or his qualification but given the size of the site and the range of activities going on then maybe he doesn't have the necessary skills. he is probably the best person to assisting on the undertaking of the FRA but not possible solely on his own. A checklist type system that he refers to may be OK for very simple premises that would be extremely low risk and by there nature not many fire precautions would be required. I don't believe a checklist style FRA would be suitable in this case a good knowledge of fire safety certainly is required and given the size and risks of the premises then i don't see that the cost of employing a consultant is going to be excessive or disproportionate. I've carried out to many FRA to know what companies miss that believe they have a good level of H&S on site, an unbiased view with training and experience is worth more than someone trying to carry out the work with no experience and could end up taking longer and be of a lesser standard and cost more in the long run.
Phil
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Clairel wrote:
It's a shame that the fire questions are frequently the one's that degenerate into a cat fight.
Perhaps one reason for the cat fights is that there is a big difference between doing a fire risk assessement
when you have the Appendix G Regulation 16b Fire safety information to hand and when you do not. Those who argue that you need specialised training are probably focussing on the Building Regulations aspects
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
I'm not sure why the comments were removed difference of opinions I guess, no foul language.
I had someone comment that I was being totally disrespectful to my fellow H&S professionals and another person questioning my competency to carry out a FRA? Neither of these two people have met me or know anything about me but feel well placed to make these comments based on my initial post. However most people were very constructive and helpful and have forwarded me lots of useful info which I am grateful for
My initial post has not been deleted and how another so called professional can question my integrity from a couple of sentences is beyond me
I hope the mods don't delete this post as I am just offering up an explanantion. My first experiences of using this forum are not what I expected to say the least
But again big thanks to those people who did help
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Mersey
Have you tried googling, that's where I found the excellent South Yorkshire fire brigades template and been using it ever since. If you have trouble finding it then pm me.
Badger
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Foul language is not the only reason that post will be deleted. You should read the fourm rules (but that may still not make it clear).
Most of us have fallen foul of this. Me more than most I would think. It has (sadly) got a point where it is not worth arguging your point on this forum anymore. Heated arguments are not allowed as they are mostly deemed to be inflammatory.
I fear that this last post of yours may also be deleted as whenever someone question on the public forum why their posts have been removed then that post is usually removed to.
The Mods should have contacted you about the deleted posts, but if not then contact them.
A word or two of wisdom from one who's been there .... it's not worth the argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
I heard from a colleague today that he failed the NEBOSH FC1 exam, he passed the practical.
This is someone who is a perfectly competent and registered CDM-C and who lectures in construction health and safety at a well known university. He is also a competent project manager.
Last year he was asked to carry out some fire risk assessments and realised he was not competent so invited me to carry them out with him shadowing me so he could learn. He signed up on a NEBOSH cert course, he passed, followed by the NEBOSH fire risk assessment course, that he now has to re-sit later this year.
This is someone who is certainly competent in lots of H&S areas but unable to pass the test re fire risk assessment.
With this in mind is it still advisable to carry out a fire risk assessment just because you "think" you are competent?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.