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Not sure I agree that because someone fails an exam that they are not competent. Exams (in exam conditions) are a dated and inaccurate measure of someon'es ability and knowledge in my opinion. Passing the practical seems more pertinent to me.

Yawn! Yawn! Yet another sterile argument from two sides of the argument with fixed views. Don't people talk about anything else on this forum except the same topics - FRA, PAT, fire extinguishers etc As regards PAS79 - not a brilliant document, but I think the fire service would be hard pushed to prove it was so inadequate and to constitute being unsuitable and insufficient - provided it had been filled out to some degree of competence Some of the FRA template documents published by the various fire and rescue services are much worse. As I have said before, if the fire service etc don't want just anybody doing FRAs, then why do they publish such template documents on their websites? As regards all of you fire safety gurus, what makes you so certain that your own template documents are that good - they are only good in your own opinion! As with all of these competence issues, it is for nobody (fire safety expert of not) on this forum to judge competence of any particular individual. It is for a Court of law to decide, if it is ever asked as to what is competent and a suitable and sufficient in terms of FRA. Most workplaces remain of a low fire risk order imho

I actually had the "balls" to have my fire risk assessment format assessed by one of the fire safety officers that audits premises fire risk assessment in Liverpool. His comment "it ticks all the boxes". Regarding competence - I mentioned a colleague who attended a NEBOSH course with exam that is designed to give and prove competence. He failed - is that not enough to prove non competent? Otherwise what is the point of the course? I and many others enjoy discussing topics like this here, some of us are self employed and use and enjoy the contacts with other safety professionals on this forum. It keeps us up to date. Perhaps the reason we discuss the same topics over and over is because there is always somebody raising the question. What are we to do - just ignore requests for assistance?

Chrisburns I actually had the "balls" to have my fire risk assessment format assessed by one of the fire safety officers that audits premises fire risk assessment in Liverpool. His comment "it ticks all the boxes". This means nothing - you might as well get your document 'approved' by a bloke down the pub. Only a Court of Law can decide if any particular risk assessment is suitable and sufficient. As regards NEBOSH or in fact any exam - sure exams are an indicator of competence - but only to the extent that at the given moment the person could answer a particular set of question on a particular subject to the satisfaction of the examining organisation. I passed O level geography 25yrs ago, so I'm a qualified geography person? Well actually you could ignore the same questions being asked over and over again - if people haven't got the brains to either search this forum or other websites for the very repetative topics that get raised on here, there isn't much you can do for them. Its one reason why I rarely post on here anymore - its just to repetative of the same topics/questions. IOSH would be better off just creating a FAQ list of the top 50 questions asked about h&s and save the hassle of running this forum.

Fairly sure it is the appendices in PAS 79 Bob Annex A (informative) Model Proforma for documentation of fire risk assessment Annex B (informative) Fire hazard prompt list Annex C (normative) Key factors to consider in assessment of means of escape Annex D (informative) Model proforma for documentation of a review of an existing fire risk assessment Martin

Really good idea which has been suggested before and not taken up....

Competence is the important thing here, and being able to have a good go at proving it if required to by the enforcing authorities. As a CMIOSH with 40 yrs at work, the last 20 in EH&S and a recent BSc in H&S Management (I also teach H&S Management and Fire Safety part time at my local university) I still recently took the NEBOSH Fire Safety and Risk Management course (gladly I passed). Why? So that if asked I could at least prove I had the theoretical part of the required competency covered. It is another tick in another box. Did I need to? That will only come to light if there is a fire in an establishment where I have completed a fire risk assessment and I have to justify what I did. Checklists are fine as a basis but they are not a risk assessment. Risk assessments are exactly that, an assessment of risk, they are not a completed checklist.

So if you had failed the NEBOSH fire safety course would that mean you are not competent in spite of all your other experience, knowledge etc. I just wonder if you had to attend court to prove competence and declared you failed the theory exam what would the judge say?

I was beaten to it...but having seen a quote that a person IS competent but failed the course is a bit of an oxymoron. Competence is part knowledge, experience and qualification. I understand what the author is saying...it is nevertheless irrational.

Lodge, I agree with what you say, we are thinking along the same lines and I appreciate you backing me up and I do support what you say. (I do receive quite some support in these discussions, also some criticism - but - hey - that's what discussions are all about). I merely asked the question, following your point about taking the training and passing the exam to further prove your competence, regarding somebody taking the training and failing the exam. Does that mean he is not competent? If it does not mean anything then what's the point in taking on a course with exam that you can fail but still be considered competent? I suppose he can still say he is competent and just not mention that training when asked re his competence. Is that allowed?

Chris I failed the basic NEBOSH and the re-sit. Both the course lecturer and a Enviro Health Officer whom I have come to personnally know reckon that I'm capable and competent to do the job. I've since done and passed with good results a diploma which technically sits higher than NEBOSH! As smurf says, he probably had time slip away knowing the answers same as me. Badger

So this PAS79. Is it possible to get a copy for free somewhere (beg beg) or is there a better document I can get my hands on? Becoming more competent in fire is on my hit list and this is a start (along with further training of course). ....and yes I have passed fire exams as part of my post grad but that didn't include the practcial RA side of it. More theoretcial stuff about fires in general and types of mitigation. So I don't consider myself competent to do more than the basic, despite having passed my exams!

May I suggest care here with publicly discussing the sharing this document, as the copyright holder of PAS79 is very litigious when it comes to safeguarding his Company's intellectual property