One of our staff has filled in an accident report because they scalded themselves whilst removing their dinner from the microwave in the break room

Is this work related? They have gone off sick with a burnt hand and have now been off two days? RIDDOR? Sometimes I really despair

I'm really at a loss here

I despair with you.

I remember the McDonald's incident when a customer ordered a hot beverage it was too hot, the customer burnt their mouth and sued.

Was their a sign on or by the microwave? Stating to any user "be careful as food or liquids maybe hot when handled"

Randolph,

Don't get too mixed up here; different duties of care for customers and workers. The customer was in her 80s by the way, and only sued because McDonalds wouldn't pay for the extensive (and in the USA expensive) plastic surgery for the burns to her thighs and lower abdomen; she didn't just burn her mouth,

John

Although the equipment was provided in good faith I would consider this as not arising in connection with work.

Same old.. If after 3 days absence you ring the helpline I suspect the answer will be...Yes report it

I think this Lord Young report has all gone to your heads.
There is no mention of suing, Riddor doesn't come into effect till after 3 days, and all she wants to do is fill in an accident report because she had an accident at work. End of story!

Sean,

She asked about RIDDOR, and that's all I was answering in respect of; I agree, there is nothing about suing in the OP, and if I reckon there would be very little likelihood of a case. But in terms of work, yes, I think it would be reportable, as PUWER applies and the incident would therefore be arising out of work if the absencse extends to a third day,

John

Sorry Son of sywalker, your thinking is not based on the law, and yes, it is only two days, but the OP implies that the absence may be longer than that.

RIDDOR if over three days, if not, not,

John

Hi MaxPayne
Yes I agree. I have talked to some managers who really do throw the baby out with the bathwater after this kind of incident. In fact I remember one occasion when something like this happened, and I advised that the 'hazard' simply remain - do nothing. The manager said 'But how can you say that - you're a safety professional', and I said 'exactly!' lol

I don't agree that my thinking is not based on law. If an employee does something unsafe, and they know it is unsafe, then they are not taking responsibility of their own health and safety (I believe there is sopmething in law about that).

My point is that while there will undoubtedly be employer responsibilities e.g. maintenance, PAT testing etc, the employee has to ensure they are using the equipment safely. If they don't know how to use it then they shouldn't. But that poses another question! What caused the plate etc to be so hot (Yes I know about water molecule vibration etc)? Was it a microwave malfunction?

Well this does raise an issue that has been on my mind - to what extent does an employer have to provide information and training on something like a microwave? I know most people will have one at home, but heaven only knows how they use them. Do you think a sheet of do's and don'ts by the oven would do?

Sorry but I can't agree here. This is not in connection with a work activity. The IP burnt his / her hand while warming up a meal in a microwave. How is that a work activity? Just because the incident ocurrs on an employer's premises doesn't make it a work activity. I accept that the employer is liable for ensuring that the microwave is fit for purpose but that doesn't mean that whoever uses it is engaged in a work activity. Warming up food in a microwave is not part of the employer's undertaking.

Pl 53
Ok it’s not part of the undertaking- I think it is because at our site is staffed 24/7 and our staff cannot just nip out for a Greggs pasty at 3 in the morning but if they manage to injure themselves or make themselves ill using this microwave they are unavailable for work and so they are not doing what they are being paid to do. H&S is not just to do with complying with the law or avoiding litigation it should also be about having a workforce that are actually in a fit state to do the work.

Presumably they stuck the bare wires in to the socket when learning how to use it properly!

I think it all depends on your interpretation of the phrase 'an accident arising out of or in connection with work', which is the wording in RIDDOR. I think you can sensibly argue it both ways.

Oh, how I wish we had the clarity in RIDDOR that OSHA has. If anything, what the HSE needs to do is to clarify when such questions arise. OSHA in USA routinely issue " formal interpretations" that are then made available on the OSHA website for all to refer to! Refer to the text below for OSHA exemption (it obviously does not apply here in GB)

"Are there situations where an injury or illness occurs in the work environment and is not considered work-related? Yes, an injury or illness occurring in the work environment that falls under one of the following exceptions is not work-related, and therefore is not recordable.

You are not required to record injuries and illnesses if :-
The injury or illness is solely the result of an employee eating, drinking, or preparing food or drink for personal consumption (whether bought on the employer's premises or brought in). For example, if the employee is injured by choking on a sandwich while in the employer's establishment, the case would not be considered work-related"

http://www.osha.gov/pls/...=STANDARDS&p_id=9636


In my view, the act of heating food for personal consumption (this is different from a cook preparing
food in a commercial kitchen!), despite it being on the employers premises is not work related. Yes, it is on employers premises and using employers equipment, but the activity is not work related.

I would not report it under RiDDOR, but would record it in the Accident Book as an employee was injured on the site, irrespective of the work-relatedness aspect of it.

Incidentally, we permit the use of microwave ovens on our site and have a singles side of A-4 on the dos and don'ts displayed. I doubt that anyone reads that.

The principle behind the microwave is that it microwave ovens produce electromagnetic radiation of exactly the right wavelength to excite (molecular vibration) water molecules. When water molecules become excited, they heat up. Since most of our food contains a fair amount of water, we can heat up our food by selectively heating up the water inside the food.

Exactly. It's up to them if they want to put it into the Accident book. If your investigation finds it 'not work related' or is the result of the IPs misuse or whatever, so be it.



Yes, and the coffee was far hotter than most people would drink it because it was dispensed in 'drive through' and would still be hot enough to drink when they managed to find a place to stop.

PUWER might come into it, but from the posting there was nothing wrong with it. I don't agre that it is reportable, try contacting the advice line and asking them.

Did you train them how to use it. The reason I ask is that we have a water boiler and had an employee burn themselves and that was one of the solicitors questions they wanted training records for the use of the boiler and they wanted a photograph to ensure that it had a notice that it contained boiling water. I did point out that he had gone to the boiler to make a hot drink, but this information appeared to fall on deaf ears.

I don't think the Lord Youngs review will make any difference, haven't the HSE advated sensible risk assessment for years yet start defending a case and you find out how 'being sensible' has no bearing on the matter. Common sense approach to safety not in my life time.

Something I was taught when I was a child, making pots of tea. I then shouldn't need to be trained that when making hot drinks in work I need hot water and therefore people shouldn't need to tell me it's hot.

Jay
The reason that the OHSA issue such guidance is because their approach to enforcement is rather different. Most issues raised by OHSA are dealt with by an administrative procedure not involving any criminal sanctions. Because of this the OHSA must issue detailed guidance explaining when they will use this procedure. The HSE by contrast treat this as a criminal matter in court and it is for the courts to decide what the law means.
Further more in the States, most of you will be surprised to hear it is not possible (usually) to sue for negligence etc for work related injuries. Instead there is a no-fault payout system (Workplace Compensation), where the employer pays a set amount of money for each particular injury. This simplifies the system, makes it easier for employees to claim but also means that the employer can insure themselves more easily as they know how much they will be paying out. Again this means that it is left for strict statutary rules to decided what is and what not a work place incident is.
We by contrast can have hours of fun trying to second guess the law.

The actions should be:
Investigated, ask the bloke that managed to do this what actually happened:
How they managed to overheat the food? What setting they were running it on? Had they always used one particular setting and then someone else changed the setting and they were surprised that the food was that hot?
Were they using a paper plate and it collapsed as they removed it from the oven?
Look at the reasons for the injury.
Ask if this has happened before? Same bloke, different bloke?
Then you have to make a decision.
It might be that you decided that the only way to prevent repetition is to get rid of the microwave.
Or you issue better plates etc
Maybe do need a notice explain how to use the microwave safely- don’t just tell that food coming out of the microwave might be hot.
Talk to them at the food break, ask them what they use if for. You could if you wanted go on.
On the other hand you could just say- this is a one-off, I have more pressing matters and forget about it. It’s called carrying the risk. But if do this, make sure that you understand why you are doing this.