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boblewis  
#41 Posted : 17 January 2011 12:18:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Heather Yes indeed I did read it and it still simply reinforces the view that 1) The exemption of 29 concerns the refusal of a witness to give police information at the scene - nothing to do with employment 2) S35 can apply to employers but in the circumstances of legislation permitting it 3) My web link indicates that the Courts and HSE recognise limits Thus if an inspector is so keen to demand details and threaten S20 powers then it is perfectly proper for the employer and others to wonder why. People can be contacted by their employer quite legitimately and this is the obvious route unless there are other matters afoot. Of course also one would have to wonder why an inspector should inspect confidential personnel files when looking at an accident or simply inspecting. Bob
Heather Collins  
#42 Posted : 17 January 2011 14:22:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

The OP simply asked "Can you tell me if the powers of inspectors extends to allowing a persons home contact details be made available to them with asking first for that person's permission?" I don't see anything there about demanding or threatening? Or indeed about inspecting confidential personnel files...
boblewis  
#43 Posted : 17 January 2011 22:10:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Heather Originally gave a fairly straightforward NO but threads being what they are many people start to view S20 as an absolute trump card for the inspector which it is not. HSE HQ and courts have made this clear. Others have also suggested an inspector can trawl through what are confidential personnel files at their whim - again such actions need to be clearly justified as proportionate. The enforcer is not at total liberty to act as they wish just to secure whatever they are intending to secure. I hold to the belief that law must be enforced strongly but fairly Bob
Steve Sedgwick  
#44 Posted : 17 January 2011 23:45:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

Many have given opinion on this and there seems to be 2 camps / opinions; (a) those that see the objection to giving basic information to an enforcement officer who may be investigating a potential crime as a crime in it self. These have not given any supportive evidence to support their case but merely given their opinion and "Bob'd" and weaved, and camp ; (b) those that argue that this is not a sensible and appropriate response to someone trying to enforce the law. Some in this camp have given clear evidence by attaching relevant links to support their argument for others to read ie see posts 17 & 23 and left it for others to understand. Some others in this camp argued a convicting case and bowed out. I go for the Common Sense Approach but it has certainly been a good debate Steve
Steve Sedgwick  
#45 Posted : 17 January 2011 23:49:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

Spelling error in the previous post - convicting, I meant convincing
boblewis  
#46 Posted : 18 January 2011 19:33:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Steve My view is much deeper than you portray. Giving out personal details as suggested is much more than providing basic information. It is an essential point of law and an employer who does this may place themselves at risk of other legislation. It is much easier if the enforcer never places an employer in this position. To use S20 powers is disproportionate in my view but we will all await the courts view when it arrives there someday. Bob
xRockape  
#47 Posted : 19 January 2011 08:48:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
xRockape

Having followed this thread for the last few days. I am in agreement with the majority of those that have posted and believe that an enforcement officer when carrying out his duties and investigating an accident/incident is entitled to the home contact details of an employee. As some have implied, failure to comply with such a request may in the most serious of cases result in an "Obstruction" charge against the company.
jonc  
#48 Posted : 19 January 2011 09:18:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jonc

Apologies if this has been posted before - are we saying HSE is in a "crime detection" role? In that case ICO publish an easy to read guide http://www.ico.gov.uk/up...es/section_29_gpn_v1.pdf (Not sure how to make the link live, if above does not work Google "Releasing information to prevent or detect crime") From my reading of this, assuming it applies to HSE in a "law enforcement function": (a) it is wrong to assume you must hand over the information just because HSE have law enforcement powers, but (b) you may make a decision to do so having considered the issues raised. Not sure that takes us much further forward, but it does suggest there is no definitive answer. In this case I would consider, for example, is the request official and in writing, why cannot HSE find the address some other way and how sensitive is the information? On balance, I think I would agree to hand over an address in response to a written request, but it is by no means "black and white". Regards
jonc  
#49 Posted : 19 January 2011 09:19:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jonc

Oh! Turns out links go live automatically - wonders of technology.
boblewis  
#50 Posted : 19 January 2011 12:35:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

So the quickest way of getting the information is to ask the employer to contact the employee - faster than an official HSE letter. Bob
mylesfrancis  
#51 Posted : 19 January 2011 14:36:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mylesfrancis

boblewis wrote:
BWM You are proving my case in a sense that inspectors recognise in general that asking the company to contact witnesses will avoid this minefield. You also demonstrate a mindset however that concerns me - when a company feels inhibited by other legislation the inspector thinks automatically of obstruction. Just because they may wish to interview somebody at home does not give a right to try and use S20 to bully an answer from the employer. Clearly one could then wonder why an inspector would want to do an interview at home - are there ulterior motives here. Sauce, goose and gander come into play here. I have seen this tactic used to try and strong arm witnesses into not using a solicitor in a S20 interview. Bob
As another recent former Inspector, I'd take issue with the black and white views here. In my experience the Inspector doesn't automatically think obstruction. It depends very much on the reasonableness of the exchange with the employer and how they respond. A blunt "No, I'm not telling you" would get pretty short shrift. A measured response of "I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I can give you that information without being in breach of DPA legislation. I am happy to pass the request to the employee..." etc is likely to go down a bit better. And what is the problem with interviewing an employee at home? Particularly if they are still off work with their injuries? What would be the purpose of insisting they come into work to do this? Looking at it from the other side, one could suspect ulterior motives on the part of the employer. And I really don't buy this stuff about solicitors. In over 12 years with HSE, the vast majority of times I had a witness "request" a solicitor it turns out to be the company one with a less than enlightened view on what constitutes a conflict of interest. Trying to persuade a witness not to have proper, independent legal representation is wrong. Trying to ensure that a witness is able to give a full and frank account without the company-imposed presence of their solicitor isn't. But that opens up a whole other debate!
Steve Sedgwick  
#52 Posted : 19 January 2011 14:47:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

The score so far is 14 in favour of giving this basic information following a reasonable request from an inspector and maybe 4 posters saying that they would not give a witnesses name and address for fear of potential action for breach of data protection. Some of the 14 posters have given supportive evidence for their opinion but the other 4 have no evidence relative to this thread only opinion. I can be persuaded to change my mind with some case law. But I am sure that there has already been unsuccessful extensive searches for this Steve
boblewis  
#53 Posted : 19 January 2011 19:30:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Mylesfrancis BWM et al had opened up the issue of obstruction and not I so my response is addressed to this view. I am quite happy for interviews at home if the employee is comfortable to do so but BWM did suggest that it was to remove pressure by the employer - which was not part of the original post anyway. You are also proving my concerns re the HSE view of the use of the same soliciotrs as the company and paid for by the company. You appear to be stating that a solicitor is unable to work in the best interests of his employee client - the law society would be interested in your views. Note however I did carefully state the same "firm" of solicitors not the same solicitor. Steve A 14 - 4 majority does not make anything correct and if you look I did provide a supporting link from HSE to demonstrate their and the court concern over disprpoprtionate use of powers. Even the inspectors posting are wary to state they would jump to S20. I am concerned that an employer is being bounced simply by the belief that the HSE have a total right to demand anything they chose even when the law around that demand is at best grey. I also do not believe that a differing interpretation of the DPA exemptions as I set out is simply my opinion - it is just as valid as any opinion that others care to posit. I have no problems with inpectors interviewing witnesses wherever they may BUT let us do it in a manner that is proportionate and does not force the employer into a corner. I am concerned however as I say above that some inspectors view employers as potentially obstructive and one makes some imputations about the legal profession as a whole. Bob
mylesfrancis  
#54 Posted : 20 January 2011 11:08:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mylesfrancis

boblewis wrote:
You are also proving my concerns re the HSE view of the use of the same soliciotrs as the company and paid for by the company. You appear to be stating that a solicitor is unable to work in the best interests of his employee client - the law society would be interested in your views. Note however I did carefully state the same "firm" of solicitors not the same solicitor.
I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion about me stating a solicitor is "unable to work in the best interests of his employee client"? In my experience, more often that not a company would try and get the employee to use "their" solicitor - as in the person, not the firm. That is a clear conflict of interest and the Law Society guidance on this issue recognises that. Even the use of the same firm of solicitors raises the question of conflict of interest, and there are shades of grey here. A small practice with, say, two or three solicitors would struggle to demonstrate that they have suitably robust "Chinese walls" to prevent such a conflict arising. A large, multi-office practice is much more likely to have the systems in place to deal with such issues. Again, this is something recognised by the Law Society. In my opinion, this is one of those areas where it is important that the right thing is seen to be done in the eyes of the average observer regardless of the absolute "rights and wrongs". There's nothing wrong with an employer paying to ensure an employee gets decent, independent legal advice but, if the employees interests are truly at heart, what is the problem with using a different firm to ensure that there can be no accusation of a conflict?
Heather Collins  
#55 Posted : 20 January 2011 13:20:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

boblewis wrote:
Mylesfrancis You appear to be stating that a solicitor is unable to work in the best interests of his employee client - the law society would be interested in your views.
Bob - I suggest you read his posting again more carefully. He said nothing of the sort. In fact he said just about the complete opposite!
boblewis  
#56 Posted : 20 January 2011 21:06:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Heather Please re-read the final paragraph of mylesfrancis comment - it said precisely that to me. Maybe I am just sensitive about this issue as I have seen it happen. Bob
Steve Sedgwick  
#57 Posted : 20 January 2011 22:25:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

It has been a good debate but I am glad that we have now come to a conclusion and we can move on. Steve
boblewis  
#58 Posted : 28 January 2011 12:49:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Sorry to bump this to the top again but how many saw the Information Commissioner on the box last night after the latest personal data losses. He stated that data holders have really got to understand their responsibilities handling any personal data. Some legislation he said required specifically the giving of data to others and also it must be given when the information is direct evidence in a crime. Lesson here seems to be do not give details unless you are absolutely certain that you must. The witness personal details are not direct evidence in the crime they are a means to contact the potential witness for a statement. Police are able to arrest somebody for not giving their own details but not for witholding details of somebody else. It seems to me that the IC is restating clearly that it would only be a very exceptional circumstance where a witness details could be demanded even under section 20 and for me these means a legal review of such a demand. Bob
pl53  
#59 Posted : 28 January 2011 13:02:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pl53

We already give that sort of information routinely to the HSE anyway. When reporting an accident undr RIDDOR Part C of the form F2508 asks for the IPs name, home address, phone number and age. How many ask for the IPs permission before disclosing those details. Not many I bet.
Ken Slack  
#60 Posted : 28 January 2011 13:59:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ken Slack

This post is fascinating, had to have a look and found this from the ICO, apparently, even if the police ask for information to detect crime under s29, you can still refuse and ask for them to provide a court order, so I imagine it would be the same for the HSE... Very grey I think... http://www.ico.gov.uk/up...es/section_29_gpn_v1.pdf
Ken Slack  
#61 Posted : 28 January 2011 14:00:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ken Slack

Do I have to release the personal information requested? We understand that most people will want to help the police to prevent crime or catch a suspect, but it is up to you to decide to release personal information under this exemption. Even if you decide that the exemption applies, you still do not have to release the personal information. If you have genuine concerns about releasing the personal information (for example, because you think you have other legal obligations such as the information being confidential), then you can ask the police to come back with a court order requiring the release of the personal information. If the court decides you should release the information, you will not break the Act by obeying the order.
Bob Shillabeer  
#62 Posted : 28 January 2011 14:38:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

This has become rather silly, court orders etc are not generally required. The employer should simply ask the data subject for his agreement to provide the details requested by the inspector. If that pernission is given the emplyer is quite free to provide the requested information and is not in breach of the DPA. The inspector also has a duty to keep taht information private unkess the person cobcerned is either in agreement for that info to be made public or the person concerned is charged with any offence, at which point the data is subjudicy anyway. The main thing about this is the right of the employer to divulge personal data is against the DPA and not any other laws that have been used on this topic.
Ken Slack  
#63 Posted : 28 January 2011 14:45:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ken Slack

Sorry for being 'rather silly' Bob, was merely govong a different slant to the OP. Won't bother again.
Bob Shillabeer  
#64 Posted : 28 January 2011 15:51:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

Ken was not refering to anything you have said, it is kust that the whole tpoic is quite simple to deal with. Ask the data subject for his agreement and go from there. If the data subject refuses, you enter into another ball game all together and the inspector must either wait and interview the person when he next attends work or get a court order and go and caution hte person in question, the insopector can then ask whatever he likes and expect an answer under a totally different set of legal conditions. As to not bothering again that would be a great pity because no one is the font of all knowledge and you oftemn bring something of great value to the exchanges on this forum.
ahoskins  
#65 Posted : 28 January 2011 16:22:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ahoskins

I haven't been about so much lately, but after reading all of the debate many seem to have misread the OP's original quetion (first part) in my view. "Can you tell me if the powers of inspectors extends to allowing a persons home contact details be made available to them with asking first for that person's permission?" The employer is first asking the person whether they are willing for them to give the inspector the information requested. Surely if the employee agrees to that then the DPA doesn't come into it?
boblewis  
#66 Posted : 28 January 2011 23:07:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

ahoskins We have all taken this in the OP as a typo hence the discussion direction. Bob S I agree with you - ask the subject but unfortunately many argued that HSE have the power to demand winess details - the IC seems to confirm they do not have this power. Many instance the F2508 as information being given but this is limited to the IP not witnesses and we do need to be very wary sometimes about HSE requests Bob
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