I have just been informed that a care provider who has carers working on zero hours contracts in clients homes (we only pay you when you work for us other wise we have no contract with you) has informed their employees that they must attend a manual handling course and they will not pay them for their attendance. I am of the belief that this is wrong "Employers must provide training during working hours and not at the expense of their employees. Special arrangements may be needed for part timers or shift workers".(INDG345), also MHSAWA 13, ACOPS 81 anybody any thoughts?

If you're referring to the zero hours contract set up, these are quite common for new postal workers within the Post Office.

Hi oldblueflame You are quite correct about safety training must be done in work time or at least paid for. I remember a couple of years ago sitting on an expert panel for NHS safety training when the director of the national unit stated that the programme would be by e-learning so that staff could do the training at home rather than take up time at work. I can still see the two HSE inspectors non the panel desperately trying to come down off the ceiling. They made it very clear that any safety training must be done in works time or at least the staff must be paid for the training. Take care John C

Off topic regarding the employers H&S duties... Isn't there a change in the law regarding regular use of agency workers that instill rights of holiday pay etc after a reference period?

back on topic the legislation for agency workers this actually gives guidance on the specific topic in that "(b) any period during which that individual is receiving relevant training" is classed as working time, and in my opinion as such an employee should be paid for again no mention of not needing to comply with any health and safwety legislation

old blue flame this post interested me so much i contacted a HR lawyer who i have worked with in the past and who i used to interact with when i managed employee/public/product liability in a company 5 years ago. The reason i contacted him is that he has a really good angle on HSE legislation and how it interacts. His view was that it does not matter how many hours you are contracted to - the minute you sign a contract with an individual (even zero hour) all HSE legislation applies as you have a duty as an employer. His take is that all PPE should be supplied free and the employee must be trained in company time. he noted that is not just in terms of HSE but any other training also etc etc etc. Therefore a zero hours contract does not mean they are self employed or that you owe them any less a level of care as some one who is full time. Hope this helps Interesting strand Martin

Martin You were not kidding about obtaining a worst understanding after reading that report, some quite interesting issues and case law. I could formulate an argument for the employers responsibilities under health and safety legislation which I think that document underlines but there are so many variables in employment status an employer could interpret to prove or disprove a status, both innocently and otherwise