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Control of Asbestos (Regs) for domestic dwellings...confused?
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RayRapp  
#1 Posted : 04 October 2011 21:24:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp
A contractor is installing central heating in domestic premises, however the client is not the householder but a limited company. The duty to manage asbestos pursuant to CAR 2006 is based on non-domestic premises - Reg 4.-1(a). The client's attitude to asbestos is a tad blasé, notwithstanding that, I find it difficult to reconcile the regulations when there is a commercial interest between the client and the sub-contractor. I fully appreciate there are still duties for the employer even when the activities take place in non-domestic premises, but I'm not sure if the regulations are drafted poorly, ambiguously or I a getting confused with the CDM Regs? Over to you my erudite friends.
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bob youel  
#2 Posted : 05 October 2011 07:17:15(UTC)
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bob youel
More detail please e.g. Is the accommodation currently occupied by a tenant or will be occupied when the CDM job is complete? Asbestos and CDM are two completely different laws NB: Environmental law applies to asbestos irrespective of the situation; domestic and/or business - there is no distinction between the two as does transportation parameters
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bod212  
#3 Posted : 05 October 2011 08:01:13(UTC)
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bod212
Bob You are spot on, the regs are ambiguous to say the least when it comes to domestic premises. I do not work in the domestic sector, only commercial/ industrial so someone with more knowledge than me will no doubt elaborate. What I would say is that even though reg 4 will not specifically apply to domestic premises does not in any way devolve the issue asbestos away from the Client. The specific 'duty to manage' does not apply but it still needs to be correctly controlled by him or his appointed person. He has duties under H&S law and CAR. The subbie(s) also has duties under H&S law and CAR. They can't just put the blinkers on. Queries about asbestos in domestic premises are very common on here.
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RayRapp  
#4 Posted : 05 October 2011 08:52:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp
Bob, the dwellings are occupied during the installation. Basically there is no information from the client (limited company) with regards to ACMs, it a case of suck it and see, unless a works survey should identify potential asbestos by chance. Once ACMs have been identified or suspected, a licensed contractor tests and or removes. The problem here is the cost cannot be transferred to the client and the work proceeeds on a fixed price. Hence there is a temptation for the operatives in order to 'get the job done' to ignore or remove the offending ACMs themselves if small amounts. I find that CAR is very confusing in this type of working relationship and domestic environment, possibly others have come across similar conundrums.
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johnb  
#5 Posted : 05 October 2011 08:57:20(UTC)
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johnb
Bob See hse web site re Edinburgh council and asbestos in domestic properties. All employers still have a duty not to let their employees or other be exposed to asbestos. Johnb
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Ron Hunter  
#6 Posted : 05 October 2011 11:51:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter
Ray, I think essentially you need to put Reg 4 considerations aside and focus on the overarching requirements of CAR06. Reg 4 is really not relevant here. Bear in mind that Reg 4 is very much an "insertion" into previous iterations of the Regulations, and that there is a reason that Reg 4 has its own ACoP. Regulations 5 (a universal starting point for works) 6, 7,10, 11 and 12 detail the specific approach required by all and any employer, as opposed to any householder, domestic client or Reg 4 "duty holder" consideration.
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bovovey  
#7 Posted : 05 October 2011 11:59:50(UTC)
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bovovey
The HSE issued a 4 page advisory note on asbestos in domestic dwellings in May 2009. It is quite useful and clearly sets out client and contractor duties. It can be found at http://www.hse.gov.uk/se...idance-refurbishment.pdf Paul
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bovovey  
#8 Posted : 05 October 2011 12:10:59(UTC)
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bovovey
Sorry, it is 3 pages. Also my past experience tells me that the HSE would be very interested in what the client and the subbies are up to.
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boblewis  
#9 Posted : 05 October 2011 12:23:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis
The need to provide information under CDM applies to all construction work and clients cannot avoid this once they contract out construction work Bob
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RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 05 October 2011 14:43:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp
Agreed Bob, but you you what it's like in the cut throat commercial world of construction and building industries - don't upset the Client! Meanwhile, I will be providing an asbestos policy/procedure and RA, so many thanks to everyone for their input. Ray
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