Hi all

A situation has occured as follows. Guy stands up from his chair and strains his back. I have not yet conducted an enquiry as to ascertain if there was pre existing conditions. The DSE set up is appropriate, and so is the surrounding location, floor etc...

He has been signed off for over 3 days.

Would this be deemed as RIDDOR reportable?

Further info- He was not carrying out any work activities but was at work.

Yes this was my conclusion. Thank you.

David - This iswhat has made me reluctant to report it!! Any further clarification on this. He was working on his computer just before he stood up and pulled his back. Your thoughts.

In work? Then a work related activity as far as I can see.

I agree with David and Jim not related to a work activity or work equipment, environment so not reportable.

From the info provided not connected - not reportable

Another vote for no here.

This is an example for the HSE's own site
An employee steps out of his private car in the office car park. In doing so, he somehow twists his ankle. As a result he has more than 3 days off work. The employee had not yet started work for the day. There were no defects to the car park surface, debris or spillages etc. present that may have contributed to the incident and the light was good.

No. Provided that there was nothing about the condition and design of the car park surface, condition, slope, weather conditions, lighting etc which contributed to the accident. This is not reportable because, on the face of it, the accident that resulted in the injury did not arise out of, nor was it connected to the work activity. Note - If the employee was “not at work” then their employer might still have to report the injury if the employee, who was not at work, was taken from the place of the accident to a hospital for treatment. The “accident” must still have arisen out of, or be connected with the work activity though – so if the injured person put their foot in a pot hole and twisted their ankle, then it might be reportable, if they had just stepped awkwardly out of the car, then not.

I would see standing up from a chair as a similar type incident.

And the 3 key tests I have always been given are:

The manner of conducting an undertaking....No.
The plant or substances used.......No.
The condition of the premises.......No.

Report it.....if the answer to the above is No then No.

p48

Not riddor. He stood up and got a back pain. It could have happened on his sofa at home.

IMO it is reportable, in fact I’m struggling to understand why people think it is not.

For example, an employee is sat at a desk transferring information from a document onto a computer. The employee finishes, stands up takes the paperwork across the office and puts it into a filing cabinet, walks back and sits down again at the computer.

At what point do people feel the employee stopped working ?.

Example two, employee completes work on computer and turns it off, stands, takes their coat off a stand, walks down a corridor, down some stairs, walks through a reception area and swipes out at the front door then walks on to the street. However during the walk through reception their boss stops them and asked a question, which they discuss for 10 minutes.

At what point do people feel the employee stopped working ?.

My understanding is that the Health and Safety at work act includes access and egress to place of work. So surly while traveling to your work station / area is connected to the activities you undertake on behalf of the organisation. ? You have to move about or how else could you do your work.

In the example of the post room, I think that is referred to as “on a frolic of their own” quite literally and so not work related.

From the above link to HSE web site, the guidance L73 on page 22 item 36 states :- Determining if an accident is reportable under RIDDOR does not depend on apportioning blame. The broad meaning of ‘arising out of or in connection with work’ means that an accident may still be reportable even if there had been no breach of health and safety law and no one was clearly to blame. I note the new guidance also states the same thing. Unfortunately there is a lack of good examples of what would not need to be reported (IMO), a lot would be gained by more guidance not less. The point here is that is does not matter if everything is as it should be in the working area.

Happy for someone to try and convince me otherwise on this, but I feel it should be reported.

Personally I look forward to the day that I can be sat at my kitchen table having just finished my cereal, were I can push a button and dematerialise from the kitchen and rematerialize still in the sitting position at my desk (appropriately clothed). This would cut out all the walking up/ down stairs, along corridors and sitting down, which eventually employers may consider is not working and therefore dock people’s wages. I don’t think we are quite there yet!

Hi all
I think it is reportable the person was at his work station part of that being his chair surely accsess and egress from the chiar must come into it

This is reportable, seeing the accident happened at work, review your workstation DSE assessment, and see if you need to implement any changes,

Bob S (post 16) has given what I would agree is very sensible advice and I would also advise it is reportable.

Two points:-

Firstly, neither RIDDOR nor OSHA Recording Rule were promulgated for benchmarking personal safety performance of organisations nor for the purpose of recording for civil claims. They were simply meant to be the means through which the national regulatory/enforcement bodies would get information and focus on the more serious and also as a means of analysing trends etc (statistics) for policy direction etc.

Secondly, there will always be a grey area for soft tissue injury that cannot be proved either way as there is not physical evidence such as a cut or a bruise!

I continually read L73 over and over when trying to determine if incidents are reportable, particularly those involving school pupils. My view is that this is not RIDDOR. Though not included in the RIDDOR guidance as one of the factors to assist in making the decision, one that I always ask myself is - what benefit would the information be to the HSE in assessing an organisation's management of h & s?

Your investigation may help you further to determine facts.

I personally would accept that an employee who is required to work at a DSE workstation is generally "at work". If he stood up as it is required to do so "out of and in conection with work" , it is difficult to contend that he is not at work.

I have to comment that he is at work, he is using company work equipment, although he is using it incorrectly he has sustained an injury...

It should be reported.

Here's a couple of crib sheets in case anyone finds it useful... I have these on the wall beside me after constantly having to remind myself of the criteria...

https://files.me.com/gavinramsay/7z1wmb - Arising out of, etc

https://files.me.com/gavinramsay/s9pmv4 - Reportable incidents involving vehicles on public roads

Good luck

The question is simple!!! Investigate the persons background. Was there other reasons for his back to ache at that particular moment? What had he been doing the night before or that weekend? Had he done some heavy lifting? Overstretching (painting, clearing gutter out, moving machine machine, gardening or anything strenuous)? Had he had back trouble before? Has he a medical back problem that his/her manager doesn't know about?
Investigate properly then decide if other things could have contributed to his back ache. This would lead you to whether it was at work or not. Causation is the master word here and it might be that the cause initially was already there before he even started work.
Food for thought - hope this helps.

Paddywack56

When did this happen?

He has been to see his GP who has signed him off. He will be away from his normal job for more than three days.

How many days have you left to get the report in?

Better be quick?

Just wait for the letter from his solicitor, then your solicitor, then explain why this was not reported under RIDDOR

Take care now!