http://www.iosh.co.uk/ne...ng_against_football.aspx

While it almost certainly safer to sit than stand, I would suggest that the worst of all scenarios is mass standing in seated areas, as happens with all away fans in the Premier division.

I concur mylesfrancis - 75% of my work has/is with Sports Stadia and Sports Stadia Events and subsequently I have concerns. I felt at the time that the decision to go to 'all seater' was not really addressing the 'root cause' of Hillsborough and that it was a knee jerk reaction and something that IMHO, took 'people' away from addressing the real cause, hence the search from the group that was formed, e.g. Justice for the 96, in an attempt to get to the truth about those killed at Hillsborough.

Standing happens in the Kop at Anfield in most games and especially in European games, and i agree that it can be very unsafe at times.

Even as a Liverpool season ticket holder for the last 23 years i would like to have the option of 'safe standing' like the German model. One standing space per seat which can then be used for all seated games (in european competitions).

Hillsborough didn't even have a safety certificate for the ground hence it should never have been used for any games never mind a major semi final where complete breakdown of any communications between the police in the control room and those struggling to control crowds turning up late due to major traffic problems coming across from Liverpool.

Anyway, not going to comment too much as i've read a hell of a lot over the years and involved with a footy website that set up a 'Hillsborough for Dummies' website.

In less than two weeks time i will be watching Bayer Leverkusen v Borussia Moenchengladbach. The away end has approx 1000 safe standing seats, but the home end doesn't. What they do have is an area of proper terracing for 1500 people (it can take many more but its restricted) and i'll be in that.

Well, as a season ticket holder, I must've sat down for all of tens minutes across 23 games last season. Am I irresponsible? Possibly.

But this issue does tend to have a certain element of self-policing. The most vociferous and animated fans tend to congregate towards the rear of stands behind the goal and all but the most casual of fans would be aware of this. This is one of the problems with the all seater ground - there is now a perception that grounds are "one size fits all". You should be able to sit in pretty much any part of the ground and be able to park your bum for the full 90mins and not expect to have your view interrupted by someone else who likes to get on their feet at least a bit. Back in the "old days" there was a choice to be had - join the vocal, swaying mob on the terrace behind the goal, or take the more refined terraces or seats along the sides. It seems that because there are now allocated seats this can no longer be the case.

I also think raising the issue about the "domino effect" of people falling over seats is a classic H&S over-reaction to a potential risk. How often has this actually happened? In 20-odd years of all-seater stadiums being commonplace, I'm not aware of any and I'd wager that there has been little more than a handful despite millions of people passing through the turnstiles in that period.

Are these really the responses of 'safety' professionals.

There was a horrific 'accident' at Hilsborough and the enquiry highlighted many underlying and root causes that required action. One of these, and by no means the only one, was the risks posed by 1000's of people STANDING.

Say what you like but it standing increases the risk, and ultimately the effect, of a similar accident.

If you want to go back to the days of hooliganism, racism, public urination, and sexism then that is your choice. But going back to the days of standing? Not for me thanks. I'll accept a reduction in "atmosphere" for the safety of myself and my children that can now, thankfully, attend a football match in safety.

After all that is what this forum, and us as safety professionals, should be concerned about.

Phillips, i've seen alot over the years on and off from the 70's onwards. Grounds needed and still need safety certs, which Hillsborough didn't have at the time of the crush, so should never have even had people in the stadium never mind 50,000 people.

It is no longer a working class game, turning into an opera crowd at some grounds, fans are being priced out from going because of greed and also due to having to pay a lot more due to seats.

Even as a long term LFC season ticket holder, i and plenty of others (safety professional or not) wish to have areas within the ground using the german model that has worked.

I'm also an eyewitness. I've seen plenty of 'safe seats' used as missiles against Police and other fans. And do you really think Hooliganism has gone away? Clearly not been to an away match at the likes Of Man Utd, Spurs, Chelsea (i've been to probably over 250 aways home and abroad)etc where you still to this day have to keep your wits about you. Sexism and Racism still happens but not to the amount it did even ten years ago. Public urination has been almost wiped out due to extra facilities but i've still seen people urinating in sinks and in corners of toilets due to still a major lack of facilities.

I only recently got a season ticket for my local football team so have never experienced a standing stadium. We only stand when the game get really exciting, which as its Bradford City sadly means about 10 Min's a match these days - anyone at last nights away game may disagree with me. For me the beauty of an all seater stadium is the control over where people actually are. You are allocated a seat number and that's where you sit (more or less). This stops people fighting for what they see as the best vantage point. It must help distribute the crowed around the ground and help the club organise stewards as they know the number of tickets sold in each area. In my youth I went to a number of large concerts and have seen people being rescued from the crush in front of the stage, would hate to see this at a football match in the excitement of a goal being scored. Trust me that does not happen very often at our ground so would be exciting! I cannot say I have ever thought it was dangerous when people do stand for a short while.

By the way, for those who haven't seen modern safe standing facilities, there is a good gallery of the areas in use at FC Hoffenheim (German Premier League) here: http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/gallery-2

I'm not saying standing should not be allowed, only that in a seated stadium all should sit.

In stadiums where standing areas have been designed and built by all means stand, everyone in those areas will expect that, but please don't stand in a seated area. Would you do that at the theatre, or cinema?

If standing can be done safely, as it is at some European grounds, then people should be given the option. People at sporting/music events arent at work so can (and arguably so) choose to take a 'risk' of standing if they like. Ive ended up standing at many events when I didnt want to simply so I could see. I dont think its always possible to dictate to crowds. If there was a standing area then at least one excuse is removed.

Do concerts with standing areas tend to have fewer problems with people standing in the sitting areas? I don't know but if the customer wants to stand, we should try to find ways to let them do that as safely as possible.

I remember cold winter nights in the late 1970's when 6 or 7 of us would pile into a friends mum's little mini, (5 in the back and 2 in the passenger seat usually ! ), and she would drive us up to the Victoria Ground in Stoke to see the mid week games. We were 8 or 9 years old at the time.

We would go into the "Paddocks", which I am surprised nobody has mentioned. For those who don't know what a Paddock is, they are small sections of terracing beside the pitch separated by walls.

In the case of the Victoria Ground, the ones we used were in the main stand, below the seating, next to the pitch. Each Paddock was probably 10/12 terrace steps deep and about 15 yards across. I think there were 7 or 8 of them running along the side of the pitch.

I remember the first time we went being surprised to see children of the same age in the queue with plastic milk crates, but I soon realised why once inside. This was because the very front of the Paddocks were below pitch level, so they would take the milk crates down to the front and stand on them.

As a child, I found the Paddock environment perfectly safe, especially when compared to the large terraces found behind the goals. The boundaries of the Paddock prevented overcrowding and by being pitch side and not too deep, there was less risk of toppling forward. In fact most people would stand towards the back of the Paddock as you got a better view due to the low level of the Paddock.

Over the years I have been to many different stadiums at all levels of the game, from non-league to premiership. The modern all seater stadiums, which are well stewarded, are safe environments and I believe that this had resulted in an increase in women and children attending games.

The Taylor report has done a great deal of good for the game, in creating these modern stadiums. However, if standing were to be re-introduced, I would like to see something along the lines of the Paddock type of enclosure. Small sections, pitch side and not too deep, which can easily be stewarded, with the majority of the stadium seating.

The problem I have with the German system, is that you are allocated a space, so if you get the very tall person in front of you, you are stuck with them. However with a Paddock type of enclosure you can at least move to a position where your view is clear.

This post is not part of a campaign to bring back standing areas, but if the authorities were to consider bringing back standing in grounds, I believe they should seriously consider the Paddock type of area.