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Denise Morris  
#1 Posted : 19 March 2012 14:44:09(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Denise Morris

I am rather confused on this subject after much research, therefore my question is:- If you have a contractor cleaning windows at height , on a regular basis who has gone through the company's appraisal system therefore an approved contractor (showing all relevant site specific R.As and Safe working methods). Is a Permit to Work Certificate necessary? Similar, If the work is carried out my our own trained staff and carry out this cleaning (using a cradle) on a regular weekly basis, is a P to W certificate necessary?. The key words here are CLEANING WINDOWS & REGULAR. All ideas gratefully recieved!! Denise
jde  
#2 Posted : 19 March 2012 14:55:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jde

Depends on your organisations policies and prodecures. If it states that work at height is to be controlled by a PTW then it must be issued and followed to meet your own requirements. If on the other hand it is not a requirement and they procedure is repetitive then the relevant RA/MS should be sufficient.
HPhillips  
#3 Posted : 19 March 2012 14:56:28(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HPhillips

jde - you beat me to it.
Permits are an additional level of procedural protection and risk assessment protection. Where and when they are used in a particular organisation is down to your particular procedures.

It's up to you to decide!!!!
Kate  
#4 Posted : 19 March 2012 15:58:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

And if you are setting your policy on this - you need to ask yourself if there is any benefit in permits for this type of work. Does it give any additional control or protection? It doesn't sound like it in this case.
There is a disadvantage in having too many permits (especially repetitive ones) of devaluing the whole permit system.
David Bannister  
#5 Posted : 19 March 2012 16:34:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Without the PTW, are the risks adequately controlled? If yes (to own staff, contractors and anybody else, including any process or property risk exposures) then there is little to be gained by introducing an additional layer of control. If however there are residual risks that can best be controlled by a Permit, then use one.

In the latter case I suggest that other controls may be more appropriate for what is regular and frequent work.
Ron Hunter  
#6 Posted : 19 March 2012 17:06:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Entirely your choice of course. Where you have glazing reached via intermediate levels (e.g. flat roof) involving edge protection and/or fragile surfaces (skylights) then you may want to operate a PTW which gives assurance that the guys who turn up on the day are able to demonstrate (in all respects) a safe sytem of work?
Chris Cahill  
#7 Posted : 19 March 2012 21:31:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Chris Cahill

Just a reminder from the ACoPS
The issue of a permit does
not, by itself, make a job safe - that can only be achieved by those preparing
for the work, those supervising the work and those carrying it out.
up north  
#8 Posted : 20 March 2012 07:33:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
up north

There is another element to this, window cleaners do not work on their own sites and as such may have to comply with the site/ building owners SMS. For his own work on his own site its up to him if he uses a PTW, but when he is on other sites he may have to compy with his clients requirements.
clear as mud :-)
BernDaley  
#9 Posted : 20 March 2012 13:33:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BernDaley

Most of our clients have an authorisation process on the day despite our RAMS not necessary a permit to work system. It allows them to comply with control of contractors requirements by:
- controlling who access, who in their organisation let the contractors on the roof & when access is issued
- informing contractors of any residual/current risks (in particular if maintenance is on going, fragile roofs, fumes release (intentional or accidental), etc)
- particularly sensitive issue in areas where uncontrolled access onto a roof might result in somebody "jumping"
From managing our staff point of view it push them to think before they access as they need it to obtain keys/passes, etc
JohnW  
#10 Posted : 20 March 2012 15:26:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

I usually decide (with others) that a permit isn't required if the work is in the main 'routine'.

Window-cleaning is routine work for a window cleaner so, presumably, risk assessment already done for most situations he encounters, and adequate controls in place re securing ladder, 3-point contact.

I'd say permit to work, only if some out-of-the-ordinary cleaning process is involved. e.g. different equipment, maybe a high traffic area (vehicles or people) requiring an exclusion zone, difficult environment making securing ladder difficult needing someone permanently in attendance etc.

And since he is working on someone else's premises a PtW would likely be appropriate whenever he uses a platform or tower scaffold.
Al.  
#11 Posted : 20 March 2012 20:02:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Al.

On the subject of work at height, did anyone notice the lads standing on the window ledge behind the Queen in Westminster Hall ealier today? A fine sight..... but the edge protection? WAHR anyone?
http://www.metro.co.uk/n...nd-jubilee-in-parliament

They were the state trumpeters of the Lifeguards I am given to understand. Perhaps someone give them a permit.
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