Our HR department is currently reviewing the Drugs and Alcohol Policy, which like most I suspect does not allow employees to either come to work under the influence or drink while at work (We are a manufacturing facility) However our sales team and senior managers do from time to time take clients out for lunch or evening meals which may include alcohol, this is not mentioned in the policy. Does anyone's alcohol policy specifically cover this, do you set limits (particularly if someone is driving), do you exclude alcohol altogether, is it easier to allow these people to regulate themselves. I look forward to hearing how other companies handle this Carol

That's a very contentious issue and a very good question. At first you would be inclined to say absolutely no way, but as you say sometimes business goes beyond the boundaries of the board room and out of 'normal working hours' so is a glass of wine with a client in the evening considered to be drinking during working hours. Personally I wouldn't do it and wouldn't advise anyone else to either. I certainly wouldn't drink and drive whether working or not. I think the question here is what is considered to be 'working hours', although I'm sure a lot of good business is done over a good bottle of Chablis, which has a tendency to break down the barriers and put a signature on the dotted line when it might not have done pre-Chablis.. :)

That's a very black and white view of no alcohol at all PinkDiamond. As David said different jobs have different risks. If you're in the office, why not have a drink at lunch? To put it in context, when I was of HM Inspectors it wasn't uncommon for as many of us as possible to go down the pub on a Friday lunchtime and then go back to the office afterwards. Sometimes one drink, sometimes two drinks, sometimes....depends on whether you're driving home at the end of the day!!! Any sort of machinery, or high risk activity then no way but working in the office....why not! How about the importance of being treated like an adult and the positive impact that can have, as long as you're not putting yourself or anyone else at risk. Sometimes I do think that H&S people can come across as holier than thou party poopers. It doesn't have to be that way!! ;-)

Ray is absolutely right (as usual) it must be horses for courses. If the sales rep is entertaining a client drink is usual but common sense needs to be applied, you don't make a deal whilst under the influence but normal rules apply across the board for normal activities such as working in the office but dealing with potential customers in a hotel comes outside the standard rules, good old horses for courses really, just remind anyone in that position they still represent the company and over doing it will not be tolerated and could lead to dismissal if abused.

A good provocative thread. My answer to Carol’s question is ‘yes, it depends - on the circumstances, time, place and alcohol dosage, etc. Also, for some jobs, even having a small amount of alcohol which others can smell on one’s breath is not appropriate. Therefore, for example, when I had pub lunches while out inspecting during my HSE days I always stuck to soft drinks or tea because I didn’t want my afternoon “customers” to even think I’d had any lunchtime alcohol. By contrast, I had no qualms about a pint or two of beer with fellow inspectors when we went out (on foot!) for lunch from the office usually on a Friday when we didn’t usually go out on afternoon inspection visits. (This was when I was in a team which covered a large geographical area and such lunches were sometimes the first and best opportunity for us all to catch up with each other about where we’d been and what we’d done during the week.) Our individual alcohol dosage tended to relate to how long we were likely to be in the office afterwards and also if we’d subsequently be driving ourselves home. To use some of Clairel’s words from #5, I reckon we thought and acted in a way which didn’t put either ourselves or others at risk. One situation which potentially poses a problem in some organisations is the farewell ‘do’, usually held late afternoon, for someone who is retiring or moving to pastures new. In my experience the organisers of such events tend to buy and provide ample amounts of free wine and beer but insufficient amounts of soft drinks. Therefore, when invited to such events, I’ve tried to ask if plenty of non-alcoholic drinks will be provided for the benefit of those who will be driving home shortly afterwards. The other possible option of course for those who wish to drink booze at such events is to pre-arrange to travel home afterwards by public transport or have a lift, etc. Over the years I’ve thrice arranged evening visits by groups from work to a local brewery. Therefore, though I might be inept at some things, I can rightly claim an ability to organise a proverbial booze up in a brewery! The visits always consisted of an hour’s guided tour following the brewing process followed by an hour or more of relatively unrestricted sampling of products in the brewery’s training & hospitality room. This latter element probably explained why there was never any problem in finding people to join the visits, even after the brewery introduced a charge for them. Bearing in mind the effect of the product dosages involved, I would always pre-advise those coming to ensure they didn’t drive afterwards. In doing so, to avoid talking down to anyone, I would couch the advice along the following lines: “As you’re all sensible adults, there’s clearly no need to tell you to arrange to go home afterwards by bus, train, foot, taxi or any other method as long as you’re NOT driving!” Cheers! Graham

I am of the view that it depends on the risk associated with the job, I also feel that if in your policy you are allowing them to drink during working hours then although I believe the person should be responsible for thier actions, the company also needs to accept some responsiblity, it maybe that in the policy you write in that they are not to return to work if they have been entertaining during the day, they are to drink in moderation and they are not to use thier vehicles at all if they have a had a drink.

As posts have said, this social drinking poses limited risk( to non drivers) but it does smack of a double standard, reminiscent of the old executive dining room and toilet arrangements that used to exist in the old days. Furthermore there is a feeling that in the old days there was a ‘booze’ culture where people were encouraged to do business over drinks, and even those who were uncomfortable with it were expected to join in, or they would be left out. Those who joined in often ended up alcoholics- there are lots of life stories coming out from those days about this. At our place, sobriety is the order of the day.

This is an interesting topic for me. In the past i questioned our alcohol policy which is termed '' alcohol misuse policy''. As the name suggests i questioned whether the wording of the policy meant that it is ok to drink at work but not misuse the drink. As a company which caters for corporate events in the evening, it is normal to see events staff drinking and staying back all hours after work. If the person falls on the stairs and injuries themselves i would like to know whether the company will accept this as their responsibility or would it be the employees responsibility.

It's down to the company to decide an appropriate control for its risks (and those risks may be safety or may be commercial/public perception.) Trying to enforce a zero alcohol ban on all staff groups can be difficult especially when the contracted hours of managers usually bear little relation to actual hours. So, if I'm at home one evening drafting a response to something or other, with a Rochefort 10 by my side, who's going to criticise?

Carol, Unfortunately we do not have a HR Dept so you can guess who's remit that falls in to. I am currently in the process of updating our policy from a one line "Zero Tolerance" Policy to something sensible. If you want a copy PM me and I'll forward you a copy, bearing mind it is still in its first draft and will require ammending. Regards Clive

Tempting as it might be Graham, try to resist the temptation to speculate. As speculating is all it is. Having a drink (or even two) doesn't necessarily impinge on someone's ability to make sensible rationale decisons. Everyone is affected by alcohol differently. I think this thread has shown an unhealthy attitude to alcohol. You ban anything and it makes it more appealing to some. Hence kids going out and getting plastered when they turn 18 and end up with alcohol poisoining. Traditionally the French have a healthier relationship with alcohol that sees alcohol in moderation as a social benefit. All this scaremongering about one drink affecting a person's ability to do their job is nonsense in my opinion - although I have already agreed that no alcohol should be consumed if machinery is to be operated or other high risk tasks to be performed. A sense some moralistic undertones here.

Please note that 18 year olds are adults and not kids additionally I know a case where the 4 Brit children are married to 4 people from different shores than ours and the only people of the bunch that get plastered on a regular basis are the Brits the others drink but never get smashed! Is it something in our makeup? In my view; after studying the area, the problem is not as wide spread as is stated as all some areas want is profit from booze combined with control and those areas get all the press coverage. Additionally all those who get drunk below 18 should have their parents/guardians suitably dealt with by the law as should those over 18 be managed but it does not happen in this case as we all suffer for a few as its easier [and more profitable] to have blanket law/policies etc. People who sell and similar are always in a position where the client wants something and if they [the salesperson] do not provide it the clients go elsewhere and if you have not been in sales you will not understand as its many a case where a salesperson has won a sale even where their product is not as good as another product and its even more expensive because the clients likes the salesperson so we need to adapt our management systems and policies to suit the business NB: As a non-football fan I have even pretended that I followed the business; as if not I would have not got near the buyer nor won the order

Bob - No there is nothing in our make-up here in the UK. Plenty of people don't drink or drink to moderation. It's a cultural problem. Graham - Wetting the baby's head is a very old tradition that covers the whole of the UK and is still in existence. I'm suprised you've not ever had the pleasure yourself (....then again!!).

I've been teetotal for over 25 years. I reckon if I had a drink now I'd fall off my chair, break a leg, smash my head and be out of it for months. No I wasn't an alcoholic 25 years ago - I just don't like the stuff. Our policy states if you have a drink at lunch time don't come back to work in the afternoon. See you at 9.00am next morning and explain yourself. There's a pub within 100 yards of the gates and very seldom is anyone seen in the pub. In fact being out in the sticks, the pub has just changed licensee because it wasn't making any money. Rich

Clairel - I'm indebted to you for your information about the geographical extent of "wetting the baby's head". I mistakenly thought it to be a Scottish or Northern Scottish custom as I couldn't recall coming across the term in other parts of the UK. Perhaps I need to get out more or do more googling! :-) Incidentally, in the late 1970s I got a frosty response from a pub landlady in Northern Scotland when friends and I stopped for fish & chips and then a drink after a long and tiring day's winter walk in the Cairngorms. My 'crime' was to ask for a pot of tea to satisfy my craving at the time for a hot sugary drink. I didn't relish a cold beer, partly because I was doing the driving. Thankfully, pubs and hotels generally have greatly improved over the years by offering a decent range of hot and cold non-alcoholic drinks and also providing better choices of food.

Graham, "I got a frosty response from a pub landlady in Northern Scotland when friends and I stopped for fish & chips and then..." No such thing as fish & chips up there; its called "fish supper" and the time of day is irrelavant. I think you need to get out a bit more & also to be more observant

Walker that was a bit harsh on Graham? Lets be fair the content of a fish supper is fish and chips, Graham did state it was the seventies and then went on to say that pubs have changed greatly since then and provide a greater variety of drinks, in my opinion your thread was unnecessary and demeaning.

Sean, The Northern Scotland chippy I patronise you get more than a frosty look if you order "and chips" Translation: go away you effeminate englishman! They evidently do a nice line in battered Twix which most of the kids in the queue order.

Wow this thread has certainly livened up a bit since my last posting - all sorts of buns flying. I too worked in the railway industry and saw the introduction of D&A testing in the early 90s. However, the original posting asked about out of hours prospective clients engagements. Not something I have ever had the pleasure of sad to say - but there's still hope. There are many in the city and Canary Wharf who frequent the lovely bars and restaurants there. Some may think this is morally wrong, but I do not think a company procedure is workable in these types of industries. Another glass of Bolly?

Easy one this. Alcohol impairs judgment yes/no = Yes Do not drink in working hours. Simple