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Admin  
#1 Posted : 07 October 2009 15:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Coshh Assessor
Following the longwinded debate on this forum, I thought I'd mention that the current, up to date, just revised ACoP and guidance on first aid at work, available on the HSE website, states quite clearly that first aiders may give aspirin for heart attacks in accordance with their training.

Does that clear that up then?
Admin  
#2 Posted : 07 October 2009 15:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By martinw
What if you are not a trained first aider but have read this thread? Is knowledge that aspirin will help a person enough to give aspirin, or do you have to be first aid trained with a current certificate?
Sorry, couldn't resist....
Admin  
#3 Posted : 08 October 2009 15:26:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
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Posted By Stephen.Jones
When working for a large high street retailer (mentioning know names;S&M) the first aiders were not permitted to give asprins due to problems with the insurance and so it was not allowed. and these were all 4--day full first aiders.
Admin  
#4 Posted : 13 October 2009 14:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Cliff Davis
As a previous (and probably future) heart attack victim...............doe's anybody know the dose to give someone having a heart attack??, cos its not mentioned in your first aid at work training is it.
Admin  
#5 Posted : 13 October 2009 14:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By D. Hilton
300 mg
Admin  
#6 Posted : 13 October 2009 14:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Adam Worth
"If the casualty is fully conscious:

•Give him or her a 300mg aspirin tablet to chew slowly provided there are no reasons not to give the aspirin and provided the patient is not under 16 years of age."

Lifted for SJA website...

Round and round we go :)
Admin  
#7 Posted : 13 October 2009 14:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Adam Worth
Opps

I was too slow - credit to above poster :)
pjw4233  
#8 Posted : 24 October 2016 16:05:32(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
pjw4233

7 years on from the original post, what are peoples views, and legally where do we stand, with regards to Aspirin in a Workplace First Aid Kit?

Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 24 October 2016 19:01:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Comes back to the definition of First Aid At Work which to date does not include any activity of prescription of medicines (ref: long posts regarding Epi-Pen amongst others).

Ceratinly still not on the list of items to be held in a standard FAAW kit.

Please remember there is a BIG difference between FAAW and P(Public)FA as practiced by active members of St John, St Andrew, Red Cross etc. who have liability insurance during their training period of vailidity.

Data Protection prevents an employer making widely and publicly available conditions where aspririn would not be a suitable treatment.

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 24 October 2016 19:01:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Comes back to the definition of First Aid At Work which to date does not include any activity of prescription of medicines (ref: long posts regarding Epi-Pen amongst others).

Ceratinly still not on the list of items to be held in a standard FAAW kit.

Please remember there is a BIG difference between FAAW and P(Public)FA as practiced by active members of St John, St Andrew, Red Cross etc. who have liability insurance during their training period of vailidity.

Data Protection prevents an employer making widely and publicly available conditions where aspririn would not be a suitable treatment.

jwk  
#11 Posted : 25 October 2016 09:42:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

The British Red Cross public website says that you can give a person up to 300mg of aspirin to be chewed slowly. It was included on my recent FAW course with the Red Cross, though our first aid at work kits don't include aspirin,

John

Invictus  
#12 Posted : 25 October 2016 09:54:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

1. How do you know they are having a heart attack?

2. would it do any harm giving an asprin anyway unles they were alergic?

3. I thought that the new regulations that as long as you were acting in the bast interest whilst carrying out first aid then there would be no prosecution against you covered insurance..

John D C  
#13 Posted : 25 October 2016 10:06:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John D C

This is the latest guidance on HSE website.

Are first-aiders allowed to give tablets and medication to casualties?
First aid at work does not include giving tablets or medicines to treat illness. The only exception to this is where aspirin is used when giving first aid to a casualty with a suspected heart attack, in accordance with currently accepted first-aid practice. It is recommended that tablets and medicines should not be kept in the first-aid box.


Think it is quite clear that first aiders can give aspirin in cases of suspected heart attack. Note the recommendation about not keeping them in the first aid box.

Take care
Johnc
jwk  
#14 Posted : 25 October 2016 10:54:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Invictus's points are good ones,

John

achrn  
#15 Posted : 25 October 2016 11:55:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post

1. How do you know they are having a heart attack?

2. would it do any harm giving an asprin anyway unles they were alergic?

3. I thought that the new regulations that as long as you were acting in the bast interest whilst carrying out first aid then there would be no prosecution against you covered insurance..

1: The question relates to a trained first-aider, so the answer to this is 'from the training'.  You may as well ask how a first-aider knows the casualty is unconscious (if they are).

2: Presumably not, and the recomendation is to do so if the victim is fully conscious, which I believe is (partly) so that they can identify for themselves if they cannot take aspirin.

Invictus  
#16 Posted : 25 October 2016 12:07:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post

1. How do you know they are having a heart attack?

2. would it do any harm giving an asprin anyway unles they were alergic?

3. I thought that the new regulations that as long as you were acting in the bast interest whilst carrying out first aid then there would be no prosecution against you covered insurance..

1: The question relates to a trained first-aider, so the answer to this is 'from the training'.  You may as well ask how a first-aider knows the casualty is unconscious (if they are).

2: Presumably not, and the recomendation is to do so if the victim is fully conscious, which I believe is (partly) so that they can identify for themselves if they cannot take aspirin.

Well your little mocking tone holds no water with me, I had 3 trained first aiders who didn't know what was wrong with me despite having a heart attack, annd the reason was I didn't have the clasic symtoms, infact I was told by two of them that it was indigestion. I was training at the time and became ill during the training and although ididn't feel well i thought it was indigestion I continued training, the first aiders only realised I was having a heart attack once I had blacked out so at that point I wasn't able to take the asprin and I would bet there are loads of people who show no or little symtoms.

2 I have answered. at no point did the first aiders even suggest an aspirin as a precaution. We are all still friends but it taught them a lesson not to always take notice of the causalty.

achrn  
#17 Posted : 25 October 2016 14:08:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post

1. How do you know they are having a heart attack?

2. would it do any harm giving an asprin anyway unles they were alergic?

3. I thought that the new regulations that as long as you were acting in the bast interest whilst carrying out first aid then there would be no prosecution against you covered insurance..

1: The question relates to a trained first-aider, so the answer to this is 'from the training'.  You may as well ask how a first-aider knows the casualty is unconscious (if they are).

2: Presumably not, and the recomendation is to do so if the victim is fully conscious, which I believe is (partly) so that they can identify for themselves if they cannot take aspirin.

Well your little mocking tone holds no water with me, I had 3 trained first aiders who didn't know what was wrong with me despite having a heart attack, annd the reason was I didn't have the clasic symtoms, infact I was told by two of them that it was indigestion. I was training at the time and became ill during the training and although ididn't feel well i thought it was indigestion I continued training, the first aiders only realised I was having a heart attack once I had blacked out so at that point I wasn't able to take the asprin and I would bet there are loads of people who show no or little symtoms.

2 I have answered. at no point did the first aiders even suggest an aspirin as a precaution. We are all still friends but it taught them a lesson not to always take notice of the causalty.


I'm not mocking, I'm answering your questions.  The scenario relates to first aiders, who are trained.  The guidance says to provide aspirin only if the victim is fully conscious.

What do you think the answers should have been?  I don't understand what point you think you are making.  Are you advocating that first aiders should go outside what their training tells them?  Or is it that we should only appoint absolutely infallible people as first aiders?  That all first aiders are worse than useless?  Please elaborate - you obviosuly think you have something to say, but I don't yet uinderstand what it is.

Invictus  
#18 Posted : 25 October 2016 14:40:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Had enough cant be bothered explaining long day. Forgot theres a lot of people have all the answers on here.
Invictus  
#19 Posted : 26 October 2016 06:51:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post
Had enough cant be bothered explaining long day. Forgot theres a lot of people have all the answers on here.

Apologise, long day and two days of banging my head against a wall, so if I offended anyone it wasn't meant. I think I need an aspirin.

On a slightly different subject bandages, what do people do with so called out of date bandages. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with unopende bandages but we take them and throw them out, does anyone know where they can be sent to be used. When I worked in the prison we used to have staff who would collect them and then they would be sent to hospitals in so called 3rd world countries, does anyone have any further information.

Invictus  
#20 Posted : 26 October 2016 07:06:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: Doublestemcell Go to Quoted Post

Posting deleted - Advertising - Mods still have difficulty removing some posts - so this has been over-written

Mod 1

It appears that Mads. are having trouble stopping the idiot postings.

Edited by moderator 26 October 2016 08:07:23(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

David Bannister  
#21 Posted : 26 October 2016 07:23:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Doublestemcell Go to Quoted Post

Posting deleted - Advertising - Mods still have difficulty removing some posts - so this has been over-written

Mod 1

It appears that Mads. are having trouble stopping the idiot postings.


Give them a chance - it's still dark here!

Done!

Mod 1

Edited by moderator 26 October 2016 08:11:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

fscott  
#22 Posted : 26 October 2016 08:40:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fscott

In response to the original post I only have one point to make in relation to first aiders giving aspirin and I want to state that I am not and never have been first aid trained so this post is purely from a personal point of view.

My mother took unwell at work one day some years ago and her work colleagues contacted first aiders who suspected heart attack.  They called ambulance and the workplace nurse both of whom suspected heart attack as well.  She was shipped off to hospital and on admission doctors thought heart attack until tests ruled it out.  Now whilst conscious my mother could barely communicate but fortunately my brother also worked in the same place and was called.  The paramedics were going to administer aspirin in accordance with protocol until my brother informed them that my mother was allergic.  Now to give you an idea of the reaction, which was severe, the one and only time previous that my mother had been given aspirin it was in a hospital environment and resulted in her "hovering" above her bed watching the medical team with full crash facilities working on her which fortunately worked.  I keep telling her she should be wearing a med-alert type bracelet but I'm banging my head against the wall with that one.

Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post

On a slightly different subject bandages, what do people do with so called out of date bandages. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with unopende bandages but we take them and throw them out, does anyone know where they can be sent to be used. When I worked in the prison we used to have staff who would collect them and then they would be sent to hospitals in so called 3rd world countries, does anyone have any further information.

Invictus I once asked a relative who is a medical professional this exact question and I was told that it was particularly important with sterile dressings but the reason for the expiry dates was that the packaging manufacturers could only guarantee the glues etc used in the packaging for a certain length of time and after this they could not guarantee the sterility of the dressings.  We donate ours to a local boys brigade, scout groups etc for use in their first aid training.

chris.packham  
#23 Posted : 26 October 2016 08:45:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

When at a meeting of our local NHS Trust on the Trust's policy regarding suspected strokes/heart attacks we were told that it was the policy for ambulance staff/first responders not to give aspirin. The speaker did qualify this with the statement that others might give aspirin provided they were satisfied that the person affected was not allergic to it.

Chris

johnwatt  
#24 Posted : 27 October 2016 12:57:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

Originally Posted by: chris.packham Go to Quoted Post

When at a meeting of our local NHS Trust on the Trust's policy regarding suspected strokes/heart attacks we were told that it was the policy for ambulance staff/first responders not to give aspirin. The speaker did qualify this with the statement that others might give aspirin provided they were satisfied that the person affected was not allergic to it.

Chris

That's concerning, it's specifically stated in the current UK Resus council guidelines. Re the risk of being allergic, a first aider would never give a unconcious casualty any medication. First Aiders should ask the concious casusalty if they are allergic prior to administering aspirin.  In terms of an unknown severe allergy the benefits significantly outways the risk. 

Also those who are still unsure about giving aspirin ask the ambulance control room whilst on the phone to the ambulance call handler. A paramedic advisor is usually in this control room and can advise you to administer aspririn, they are then making the call; it is normal for the ambulance service to recommend this even to a lay person over the phone.  

Roundtuit  
#25 Posted : 27 October 2016 15:00:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

which having ascertained aspirin should not be in the works First Aid Kit......

Roundtuit  
#26 Posted : 27 October 2016 15:00:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

which having ascertained aspirin should not be in the works First Aid Kit......

Invictus  
#27 Posted : 28 October 2016 08:29:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

which having ascertained aspirin should not be in the works First Aid Kit......


The first aid equipmentis based on an assessment there are no hard or fast rules about having medcines or tablets in the first aid box it is only a recommendation. Would people keep aspirin somewhere else just in case they were needed or would they hope that someone else had some with them.

kevkel  
#28 Posted : 28 October 2016 09:41:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
kevkel

Not entirely sure about UK guidelines but here in RoI our clinical practice guidance for OFA's and cardiac first responders is to give 300mg asprin for suspected cardiac chest pain. the contraindications for asprin are:

  1. Severe allergy to asprin
  2. Active stomach ulcer (peptic ulcer)
  3. Bleeding disorder (haemophelia)
  4. Under 16 (risk of Reye's Syndrome)

Asprin prevents the platlets from binding together and prevents further blood clots from forming. As a general rule we teach that asprin is best kept with the AED where available. I carry an asprin in my wallet at all times! Asprin usually does not have any negative effects except the ones listed above in low doses (<900mg)

Kevin

bill.k_2016  
#29 Posted : 28 October 2016 15:53:37(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
bill.k_2016

On my last FAW refresher, we were told that as first aiders we can offer aspirin to someone who is having a suspected heart attack. I took the key word as being offer, We have aspirin in a locked cabinet in the first aid room, only first aiders have access, and all understand that they are offering the individual a choice. If the individual says no then thats the end of it.

paul.skyrme  
#30 Posted : 28 October 2016 17:29:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

FWIW,

About a year ago, in the middle of the night, I woke up to my wife being ill in the bathroom, next room, I didn't panic, I lied there for a moment or two, then realised things were serious.

I got up and started getting dressed before she even called me.

My next action was to pick the phone up and dial 999.

Now I am full 3 day FAW trained, as was my wife, but hers has expired.

We looked at each other and we both thought the same thing.

I dialed 999, and went through the symptoms with the call responder.

The next thing I was told asked was did we have asprin and could I administer it, no question that I can recall, about allergy.

We both knew what they suspected, the same as we did, her brother died at 39 of a heart attack, her mother at 52 of a heart attack.

The call centre and paramedics were great.

As it turned out, it was not heart related! Phew!!!

However, given that experience, I would have no qualms if I thought that the patient was suffering an arrest I would check with the call centre and if they said administer I would, and if the casualty could confirm that as far as they knew they were not allergic I would administer and be damned.

I would rely on the "good samaritan" philosopy, at least I would try to save the life.

In the same way, I WOULD apply a torniquet to a limb, even against guidance if someone was likely IMHO to bleed out from a wound and the flow could not be stemmed, and again be damned.

I would rather keep someone alive with an amputation, than watch them die.

Controversial probably, have I had to do it, no, do I want to have to do it no.

However, sometimes, one has to act on what is in front of you, the data that you have and process it on the spot, and make snap decisions based on that, you do what you can do, and the best you can.

Some people don't have the confidence of their convictions, being an Engineer, then I am paid for my opinions, and I have to live with my decisions, especially running my own company, so I am willing to accept the ramifications of my actions.

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