Originally Posted by: WatsonD

Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548

Do I dispair at the mean, selfish, dis-honest, unscrupled, lazy, entitled, rude, insular and cruel society we have become? YES

You make some good point but I'd love to know when this golden age in our History was that society had none of these elements.

Earlier generations looked to bequeath a better world to their children, can we honestly say that we have done the same.

Look back at our history, the tolpuddle martyrs, the formation of trade unions, the sacrifice of those who fought, and died, in two world wars. The introduction of a fairer society after the 2nd World War where our politicians set forth a strategy of education, decent housing, health care free at the point of delivery, a safety net for the disadvantaged and poor of our population and a committment to meaningful employment.  

A society which cared about each other, respected the law, looked at the common good rather than a me, me, me, me attitude. A society that when someone, anyone, was in trouble they went to their assistance, rather than filmed them on their phone.

 A society that believed that they got what they earned, not what they where entitled to by right not matter what if they made no contribution.  

A society that cared for their elderly, and did not think  this was the states responsibility.

A far from perfect world, but one in which everyone thought it was their duty to do what they could to improve it, so that what was wrong would be fixed before they handed it to the next generation.

Originally Posted by: WatsonD

It seems like rose tinted glasses O'Donnell. A nice little hark back to an ideal time which has only ever existed in peoples imagination. 

Was this the same time as when pedophiles ran the church, youth clubs, etc. with impunity because children were ignored, or when Racism and homophobia was institutionalised? A time when someone could be locked up for being Gay, or treated with contempt and hatred because of the colour of their skin. When those with learning disabilities were dimissed as stupid, and those men that returned from the war with mental health issues were taught to 'man up' and get on with it

Or perhaps earlier when slavery was legal and workhouses were where we sent the less fortunate?

No it is not perfect now and wasn't in any time ever before, but I believe my two daughters have more chance of growing up as equals to men and unlike any other time in History getting a well paid career where they will not have to tolerate sexual harrassment. And society will support them should they fall on hard times.

Lets not kid oursleves that we found Utopia and lost it. Deferent generations different issues.

No Watson, I am talking about previous generations, like my parents, who fought and sacrificed to address and correct the wrongs of pedophiles who ran the church,  the curse of racism and homophobia, who demanded equality and support for those with  learning disabilities and those men and women that returned from the war with mental health issues.

I am talking about our grandparents and great grandparents who, in the face of fierce opposition, brought an end to slavery and closed down the workhouses. It is because of these previous generations that your daughters can grow up equal and able to fulfill their full potential. 

But at least they know that people like you have not forgotten their struggles and their sacrifices, and are grateful for every small, painful step they made so that we could be free to disagree. Or perhaps it was all "in their imagination".   

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel

 When there is a building fire the first thing that the officer in charge asks is “is there anybody in the building?” if not,  then all the brigade  try do, is  to prevent fire from spreading  but nobody expects them to go into the building to fight the fire at its centre or to try to save stock etc. That is a form of risk assessment.

I apologise about going slightly off topic, but I must take issue with this example of a fire service dynamic risk assessment outcome. It is totally not true. The fire service will and do on a daily basis, enter known unoccupied (ie where nobody is belived trapped) buildings to fight fires. The whole concept of a fire service DRA is much more complicated than a simple than a 2 box flow chart!

A fire service DRA will of course take into account whther persons are reported trapped or missing - and its very very rare an entry into a premises would not be made in such circumstances, unless life is untenable within that building. For all other cases, there's a whole raft of circumstances to be taken into account that I wont go into now. 

Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548

Should the police use a 4,118lbs (average) vehicle to knock a 'suspect' off a moving motor cycle? NO.

If that's the course of action which, on a balance of probabilities, minimises risk to members of the general public, yes.

Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548

Would carrying out a 'suitable & sufficient' risk assessment make this acceptable? NO

See above.

Having knocked said motorcyclist off, the police in question should then be accountable for their action - they should provide an account and justification for why it was appropriate.  It's not appropriate that a street mugger should be given a 'get away scot free' card simply by hopping on a scooter without a helmet, but neither should the police charged with apprehending them  have a guaranteed indemnity from all consequences should they choose to drive into a scooter-rider.  Apart from anything elese, I don't want police ramming innocent scooter-riders who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and match the description of a suspect.

Both mugger and police need to consider the consequences of their actions, to my mind.

We should also be aware that it's not every MetPol office who is authrorised to do this - it's only specially trained and authorised officers who can undertake this activity

Originally Posted by: Elfin Davy 09

I don't think hemet-wearing, law abiding scooter riders who aren't riding like lunatics trying to evade capture by the Police have anything to worry about (..and if the suspects aren't wearing helmets, those law abiding helmet-wearing scooterists (is scooterist a word ?) wouldn't match their description anyway.  :-)

Long ago a friend of mine was stopped while cycling by a Met constable in a police vehicle.  Said police was adamant my friend was cycling illegally and dangerously and needed a sound rebuking.  Sadly for said police, my friend was a Met sergeant, and didn't declare such until constable had dug himself quite a deep hole.

I have less confidence than you that every police will necesarily make an infallible assesment of what constitutes dangerous and illegal riding, nor that they will necesarily always have a valid basis for a stop.  So I stand by my assertion that I want police to be held accountable for each and every stop, and don't want simply to rely on the assertion that the law-abiding have nothing to fear because they won't be stopped.

Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548

But at least they know that people like you have not forgotten their struggles and their sacrifices, and are grateful for every small, painful step they made so that we could be free to disagree. Or perhaps it was all "in their imagination".  

My comments were in response to the declinism evident in your post which seems to seep in to these discussion threads, almost like another version of Godwins Law and as such ending any hope of debate.

Society is in decline. This generation is the cause. End of discussion.

I did not point to your Parents, Grandparents or indeed Great Grandparents, whose stories I do not know. I am sure you are proud of their courage and activism to stand up to these wrongdoers as is evident in you last post. And I am sure I would too thank them for their contribution to society and the lives saved as a result of their courage and endeavours were I to know more about them as individuals.

However, the efforts of those brave few - along with some of your ancestors - were to fight against the wrongs in their society. So my question "When was the golden age when society had none of these -mean, selfish, dis-honest, unscrupled, lazy, entitled, rude, insular and cruel- elements?" - still stands. Perhaps you feel that people were more inclined to support each other and stand up for what they believed in (and maybe rightly so, at least the circles your ancestors moved within) but if society was perfect then, they wouldn't have ever needed to do so.

However, I'm sure you Great Grandparents despaired of your Grandparents generation, and  in turn your Grandparents felt the same about your parents generation. I would also hazard a guess that your parents felt the same about your generation. Its natural. But it is not constructive and has no place in debate.

Apologies as you seem to have taken this a personal attack. Certainly your comments which I have highlighted above suggest "people like me." Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but I'll leave it there. You are of a better society and I'm sure you would not stoop so low as to be " mean, rude, insular or cruel"