Rank: Forum user 
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Nice thread. I think the most oft phrase I use in the "Plumbers situation" is "Reasonably Practicable".
These people aren't idiots, just have a different perspective of risk. Sounds like they haven't had appropriate training and have been told to suck eggs.
I emphasise on the practicalities of life, and the need to get the job done. I always say "Nothing is impossible, and there's always a way to do it". This normally gets everyone "On the same side".
I wish more people would lend towards tradesmen's competence as a control measure more often. Try replacing 'common sense' with "Competence". I find it earns more respect when you treat the plumbers as "Competent persons" and factor this highly relevant point into the job.
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Rank: New forum user
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Recently joined IOSH and picked up this thread. I on occasions come across similar views as I attempt to develop a positive safety culture throughout the British Army. The majority of problems I face result from individuals perception of Health and Safety and those people involved with managing the situation. We should change a lot of the phrases we use and some key terminology could better describe our business. Soldiers do not join the Army to be safe. Risk is part of everyday life so is it surprising that the automatic response when they hear or read the term Health & Safety is to switch off. We could perhaps be using terms such as Forceprotection or Workforce Protection. We need to get better buy in from those people we lead. Leadership is also key to a positive safety culture.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Some of the negativity is about perceptions and labels attached to certain practices but I am not convinced that band-aid remedies are the answer. For example, Road Traffic Accidents (RTAs) have been re-labelled Road Traffic Collisions by the powers that be, but they are still road accidents to all the rest of us. Health and safety is stigmatised not by its name, rather the poor practices which are synonymous and endemic within our industry.
What this industry requires are some positive steps to discard some pretty useless and OTT practices whilst at the same time cutting back on bureaucracy and paper work. For starters, there are too many self-serving organisations out there providing so-called training, which is often not particularly cheap or good. Yet, there are constantly more organisations, registers, cards being invented all the time.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I think as long as so many H&S folk see 'elimination' of risk as their end game, and introduce completely over the top control measures, the public will continue with the 'elf & safety' view - and often I am on their side.
The whole H&S push should be for controlling risk and not eliminating it. This means accepting some risk. As long as ERIC remains best friends with so many H&S professionals, the public cynicism will be alive and kicking.
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Rank: Guest
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RayRapp wrote:Some of the negativity is about perceptions and labels attached to certain practices but I am not convinced that band-aid remedies are the answer. For example, Road Traffic Accidents (RTAs) have been re-labelled Road Traffic Collisions by the powers that be, but they are still road accidents to all the rest of us. Health and safety is stigmatised not by its name, rather the poor practices which are synonymous and endemic within our industry.
What this industry requires are some positive steps to discard some pretty useless and OTT practices whilst at the same time cutting back on bureaucracy and paper work. For starters, there are too many self-serving organisations out there providing so-called training, which is often not particularly cheap or good. Yet, there are constantly more organisations, registers, cards being invented all the time. I completely agree, Ray. There seems to be an industry out there generating new ways to make H&S ever more bureaucratic.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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barnaby wrote:
There seems to be an industry out there generating new ways to make H&S ever more bureaucratic.
Yes. And in the main, it's the H&S industry! Still blaming anyone and everyone else for the widespread negative perception of this 'profession' will take matters no further forward, but probably serve only to entrench attitudes and further disengage all of those who you wish to save from themselves.
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Rank: Guest
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Ian.Blenkharn wrote:barnaby wrote:
There seems to be an industry out there generating new ways to make H&S ever more bureaucratic.
Yes. And in the main, it's the H&S industry! Still blaming anyone and everyone else for the widespread negative perception of this 'profession' will take matters no further forward, but probably serve only to entrench attitudes and further disengage all of those who you wish to save from themselves. Yes, it is "the H&S industry" but I had in mind the organisations offering training, systems to manage various aspects of h&s, etc but which always make the worst case the norm. Whilst, I accept this does not apply to every such organisation I have come across many where it does. For a brief period I did some work for one of the companies offering 'off-the-shelf' h&s management systems; a management by mountain of forms system! There were a number of contract writers and fees were based on words written and forms produced; the more forms you could dream up the higher your fees. You're probably right that "blaming anyone and everyone else for the widespread negative perception of this 'profession' will take matters no further forward". I agree with your earlier point " - - - the negative attitude that you seek to lay at the feet of just about everyone else may in fact fall closer to home" and I think many practitioners are part of the problem, but in a simple response to another post that was not the point I wanted to make.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hate is such a strong word.
Just talking about electrical here.
Before I took the NEBOSH courses I used to think that the H&S people I rubbed shoulders with were a pain in the bottom. Now I hold both Occupational and Construction certificates (with distinction) I know that most of them really are!
Even here, in our own little cyber space the same old (electrical) nonsense is spouted. So little wonder Elves are held in what is little more than contempt. The 'we know best' line is laughed at to be honest. Qualified men/women such as plumbers and electricians etc as a rule, do know how to look after ourselves as we understand our roles. Far too many people go on courses and the try and work out 'job analysis' when in truth this can only be done by people who really know what the job entails.
It seems to me that for an electrician to try and give advice to a chap/girl working in the a field outside their own is a joke. How can someone with a cooking background give reasoned advice to electrical staff when all they know is taken from a book in the classroom?
Even on the construction course that I took, the reference book had the incorrect electrical definitions but when I offered up ,and proved, the advice given was incorrect, I had to put these answers into the examination paper.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Its a blame game.
Yesterday afternoon, I was watching Time Team.
They had decided to dig a trench quite near a cliff.
Next day Tony came along and said: “Why haven’t you dug that trench there Phil?”
Phil replied in a sing songy voice “Health and Safety” nothing else!
Tony continued to challenge (josh) him and Phil repeated twice more “Health & Safety”.
What should have happened was:
“Why haven’t you dug that trench there Phil?”
Phil replied “Well Tony, I don’t want to risk falling off the cliff and breaking my neck thanks very much”.
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Rank: Forum user
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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught." Sir Winston Churchill.
Most of us have been driving for a number of years I guess. How many of us have said "Thank you" to the spotty 17yr-old who from the backseat reminds us about rear observations, signals, and speed?
If doctors, nurses, and health and safety professionals smoke tobacco and speed whilst driving it is obviously nothing to do with training standards or information. All of us know the personal risks (and vicarious risks) associated with these two conscious decisions and the outcomes. Yet still we make them.
It appears to be the human condition to ignore what we want to, to dislike what we disagree with, and to avoid everything that is not completely enforceable.
I will always try to make my training informative and enjoyable - but I have no illusions that most of it will be forgotten in time as it is seldom reinforced or monitored with consequences.
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