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Graham Bullough  
#1 Posted : 22 August 2012 11:19:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Yesterday a response was posted on the thread “Shared tools and Personal Hygiene” by John J who said he was beginning to understand why our profession is so poorly thought of. Others have expressed similar sentiments in other threads and sometimes added that the low esteem in which they think OS&H is held makes them think of leaving the profession. Therefore, it seems appropriate to start a new thread to explore opinions about OS&H both within and outside our profession. For starters, who is actually doing the “poor thinking" about the OS&H and/or our profession? I venture that perceptions about “poor thinking” are based mostly on the misguided utterances and writings of politicians, media people such as Jeremy Clarkson and 'Daily Wail' type journalists who seek attention and tend to perpetuate a popular/sterotyped public opinion about a broad spectrum of matters handily lumped together under 'health and safety'. For a bit of balance, try reading the article suggested by PH2 in the thread "HR View of Health and Safety". Also, what views about OS&H do we get from our relatives and friends? As for new people we encounter, e.g. on holidays or while travelling, what are their reactions when you mention OS&H after being asked “what do you do?”? My own general impression from relatives, friends and various people I meet is that they have some understanding of real OS&H and think it is good for people, the UK economy and business prosperity, etc. Also, if you get negative reactions when you mention OS&H, do you try (tactfully of course) to challenge them and with what sort of results?
Jake  
#2 Posted : 22 August 2012 11:43:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

Not exactly answering the posted question, but I don't really care what others think! I'm happy in my role, my employer is happy with the work I do so I try not to expend energy worrying what others might think of the profession, I'll leave that to the politicians etc. Yes you get mixed reaction when talking to Joe Public, I just say I'm in risk management to which yI generally get a baffled expression and leave at that. If someone seems remotely interested then we can have a good discussion about business risk exposure and management covering many areas including OHS. Is the Health and Safety Practitioner misunderstood by the public? Probably, but there are more important things in life to be concerned with.
Irwin43241  
#3 Posted : 22 August 2012 11:57:18(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

I am in agreement with you Graham. Those that work day in day out in our profession, for the most part, ensure H&S is a positive thing and a not a bad thing for the employees of the organisations we work for. Real H&S is about activities 'at work' but gets lost and tagged on as nice little headline to get the attention of the public. I use alot of the nonsense stories during training and in particular when in discussions with managers etc. just to show that most of the rubbish we see and hear has nothing to do with H&S. The public are not as daft as some think and on the rare occasion outside of work that I enter into debate about H&S the bad news stories are dismissed for what they are - rubbish.
chris.packham  
#4 Posted : 22 August 2012 12:34:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

When asked what I do I generally stress the 'at work' part of health and safety. This usually results in a more reasonable response. However, recently I had a negative response to that. I then challenged that person and asked him how happy he would be if he had to go to see the wife to tell her that her husband would not be coming home from work any more, or that her husband now had mesothelioma due to having worked for many years with asbestos. I then commented that my job is to see that this sort of thing doesn't happen. Result was "I hadn't thought of it in that way" response and a more positive view of what we do. Perhaps it is us who don't promote what we do actively enough, such as those who have indicated that they try not to say what they really do when asked. Perhaps if we were more assertive then the Daily Wail and others would give up and look for something else to go on about. Chris
hilary  
#5 Posted : 22 August 2012 12:34:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

The problem with H&S is that most people only have a partial understanding - what they need to know to do their jobs safely. From this regard H&S is, possibly, the most boring subject on earth. Obviously, as H&S professionals we know differently and we know the depth of learning and understanding we need to keep everyone safe but to do it in a reasonable fashion. However, trying to explain this to someone who hasn't had the training we have had is very difficult. I usually say "I'm a Health and Safety practitioner, but my husband in a Forensic Scientist" and that normally gets me off the hook saying anything at all about what I do!!! lol :D
Zimmy  
#6 Posted : 22 August 2012 12:36:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

For what it’s worth and this may sound bitter but it is not intended to be so, just the way it plays out. I got involved in H&S because I questioned some advice I was given a couple of years back. The advice came from a IOSH member. The advice was way off being correct. I thought I’d give it a go. Getting my NEBOSH Occupational Cert with distinction and went on and took the construction cert, again with distinction. On my so CPD plan I can give myself points (effectively marking my own exam paper) so I can move on with H&S. Not at all sure if this is the way to do things. In my profession, electrical, we have to endure so many people giving out advice on Health and Safety that our ears are burn. One particular area in which problems come to light is the field of Portable Appliance Testing (PAT). We, and the general public, read/hear advice on this subject and when digging deeper we find that the person dishing out the advice may well be qualified to NEBOSH and Members of IOSH etc but have no qualifications as an electrician or even close. The advice is, for the most part incorrect, misleading and, on times, dangerous. This may come form people passing things like NEBOSH general certificate in occupation H&S and the construction etc then dishing out advice on electrical matters under the deluded thought that they are indeed competent to do so when they have no real idea what it is they are talking about. e.g. Something that has just become known here the other day. People quote ‘High voltage’ quoting USA rules/guidance and using that terminology for voltage definitions in the UK. Totally confusing the issue. When in fact people in the UK cannot, for the most part, differentiate between inflammable and non-flammable Low voltage, extra low voltage, reduced voltage; SELV and FELV all mean something. If in doubt just give the actual voltage. i.e. 12V dc or 230v ac. Please don’t go shouting ‘high voltage’ it sounds silly to the professionals. When I show this web site to our apprentices – the electrical posts that I am qualified to answer - they cannot understand why they are asked to listen to ‘advisors’ and assessors who are not qualified to answer electrical questions. They then ask ‘are all H&S people giving advice way out of their field of expertise’. Unlike Jake, I do care what others think of H&S. I care with a burning passion, I wish I didn't. But we need to talk ablt what we are good at. Cement burns..builder with H&S and so on. Please, please girls and boys, chemicals I will keep out of...etc. Sorry for going on and on but I will do so until the point is made...ok mods..kicking off time again
Clairel  
#7 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:05:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Graham, I think it's acop out to say that the bad image is down to just The Daily Mail and Jeremy Clarkson's of this world. TYhe profession has to bear somee of the responsibility through some bad practitioners who go over the top. God knows we've had the debate about who is over the top and who is not often enough to realise that there is a huge split amongst us all as to what's 'reasonable'. I also think legislation and guidance is also sometimes to blame by being too 'grey' and also pandering to the unions, who generally tend to be OTT in their approach to H&S. I have never been shy in saying that I got into this professioon because I need the work I do not enjoy working in the profession and I try not to tell people what I do for a living. When I do I quickly explain that I work in a high hazard industry and it's not all about what you read in the Daily Mail. However, I do try very hard when I'm at work in presenting a positive image about H&S. It's my mission to get clients to realise that it can be sensible and it's not rocket science. It's nice when I get thanked for my approach, which is often (if i do say so myself). Then I come on this fourm and want to hand in my notice and go live on a remote island and try to forget that I ever heard the term 'health and safety'!!!
Seabee81  
#8 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:13:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Seabee81

In the oil industry, especially the North Sea, Health and Safety is now regarded as an essential part of the process. If anyone outside of the industry has a negative opinion on what I do I point out tragedies such as the Piper Alpha or the Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill and say it's my job to help prevent anything like that from happening again. ...and yes, as Zimmy has pointed out. H&S professionals meddling in things they know nothing about gives us a bad name.
hilary  
#9 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:13:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

Zimmy: part of the process of being a good H&S practitioner is the art of knowing what you don't know. It is fundamental to the training and to being accepted as a Chartered professional. I don't know much about electricity, but I know a man who knows an awful lot about it and so I ask him. As a H&S professional I need to be able to identify issues which may be harmful and how to go about fixing them, I don't actually need to fix them myself. I have a massive list of professionals: electricians, air monitoring specialists, plumbers, machine guarding experts, builders, chemical experts, fire experts, asbestos professionals, gas fitters, etc, and when I need advice I pick up the phone. As one goes along one picks up fundamentals about each profession, what to look for in each job, strength of concrete, when you can put steel reinforcement in, what are the inspection intervals for electrical fixed installations, portable appliances, fixed appliances, who sets the recommendations and so on and so forth for each topic one is involved in. However, this does not make us experts in gas, concrete, electricity or whatever. When a contractor needs a permit to work I will ask him for a risk assessment and a method statement for the job. My training and my expertise comes in knowing whether what he has said he will do on this documentation is: a] feasible b] safe c] legal; in order to do this I need to know the laws and some basic information about his business, but I don't need to carry out the job myself. Additionally, the contractor may need to use, for example, chemicals as part of his process and I need to ensure that he is aware of the risks associated with said chemicals (even if this is just an aerosol or wipe). This may be overlooked by your average electrician, builder, gas fitter, or other trade, but what they are using may set off a chemical reaction with what we are using ..... BOOM! As a H&S practioner I have to project all possible consequences and ensure that these do not cause accidents or incidents as part of the contractor's processes. I use chemicals as an every day example, this could be work at height or vibrating tools or noisy equipment, entering confined spaces, etc - there are any number of risks which are outside the normal remit of our "expert" but which do need addressing. The main thing to remember is that no single person is an expert on everything, we need to work together, all the professions, to ensure that tasks are carried out safely and without risk to health.
John M  
#10 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:21:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John M

Can I share this "island" with you Claire? I despair at times at how this game is played out. Forget the Daily Mail, Paxman and certain others - a lot of the nonsense is bred and farmed within the safety bod communities. Jon
Clairel  
#11 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:48:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

John M wrote:
Can I share this "island" with you Claire? I despair at times at how this game is played out. Jon
No. Cause you might forget yourself and mention the H&S words and then I'd have to kill you!! ;-)
colinreeves  
#12 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:49:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

John M wrote:
Can I share this "island" with you Claire? I despair at times at how this game is played out.
I tried - it does not work ..... Colin, Shetland
MrsBlue  
#13 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:54:46(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

To pick up Clairel and John M - When H&S question A is asked and you get Answer X and Answer Y which contradict each other it really shows everyone else not associated with health and safety what a dumb lot some practitioners are. I quite agree with others if it's not your field of expertise keep out of the fireing line. O and I hate posts which start with "I don't know the answer but...... why O why is that poster wasting his/her time and mine when I start reading. Like Hilary - I go to experts in their field for answers Rich
David Bannister  
#14 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:54:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

What do I do? I save lives.
teh_boy  
#15 Posted : 22 August 2012 13:58:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

Clairel wrote:
John M wrote:
Can I share this "island" with you Claire? I despair at times at how this game is played out. Jon
No. Cause you might forget yourself and mention the H&S words and then I'd have to kill you!! ;-)
:) - that comment made my afternoon! But what happens if you talk to yourself about H&S stuff... Also hopefully the Island would have a rum store (ref: Pirates of the Caribbean)....
Clairel  
#16 Posted : 22 August 2012 14:00:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

david bannister wrote:
What do I do? I save lives.
Oh god not that old chestnut again! We had a huge debate on that recently and I think most people accepted that in fact we do not 'save' lives as there is no way of knowing whether what we do actually does save lives. It may it may not. A Doctor saves lives. A Paramedic saves lives. A health and safety practitioner does not save lives. If you need an ego boost go and retrain in the medical profession.
pseudonym  
#17 Posted : 22 August 2012 14:17:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pseudonym

I had my ear bent by my neighbour last night - usual stuff "H&S a load of (choose your own expetive)". Heard it before, will hear it again quite a few times before I retire. Not really that bothered. I make a living. As regards H&S people stepping outside their field of expertise - try sticking to what you absolutely, definately and without doubt unquestionably know ... I bet for nearly all of us that precious little. I'm not paid to know everything, mostly paid to help make sure things are safe and sometimes compliant. Note I said "help make sure", one thing I really do know is that I cant do everything. Most people in the sad, bitter and twisted world dont realise how little they know or understand about many things. Chemicals - - so the that would be "stuff" then really its all chemicals, and what isn't is physics / maths - oh and i know I dont know much about physics
RayRapp  
#18 Posted : 22 August 2012 14:18:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

David, I can say without hesitation that the h&s industry is held in poor esteem by many people, particularly those who work in construction orientated industries. As has already been pointed out there is much negative publicity in the media, nevertheless people are not stupid and most realise that these stories often have no substance. In any case, when I discuss with people the pros and cons of h&s nobody ever mentions the silly stories but their own negative experiences. So you might ask what is the problem? There are so many issues associated with the adverse reaction people in general have with h&s and it is difficult to know where to begin. However, a starter for ten...over zealous (bearing) clients who use their influence to impose all manner of OTT initiatives. Main contractors who do not have the stomach to stand up to these clients, but are all too willing to crucify sub-contractors for minor infringements. The insurance industry and accident claims companies for promoting the perception in society of a blame culture. The HSE for spending countless hours producing overly prescriptive and complex guidance without ever addressing some of the real problems in our industry. Finally, some of our own colleagues who cannot see the woods for the trees.
RayRapp  
#19 Posted : 22 August 2012 14:19:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Apologies, I meant Graham not 'David'...got confused in the heat of the moment.
TSC  
#20 Posted : 22 August 2012 14:25:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
TSC

I think the profession can be negative in itself with poor advice and sometimes I read the IOSH forums and see arguments between what would appear to the public as H&S professionals. If the public get confused how do they evaluate what they see? A good book I am reading (well good in my eyes) is Dan Carter's, Risk. This hits the point on why people see things in the light they do i.e. 'Gut feelings'. Currently on the news is tragedies about kids drowning so no doubt people will think swimming of the sea is dangerous and why, because they have seen a news article the evidence is there and their gut feeling goes with that. If I said to someone risk assessment, safe working practice etc will save their life or reduce accidents, no emotional ties with most no response. So if people are pushing safety into a bad light whose opinion do they respect mine vs the newspaper, I would say more likely to believe the newspaper. Safety gets hit from all angles and it is up to us as professionals to encourage and gain buy in by being positive, supporting and assisting. That includes being humble to say, I don't know the answer on that but I will find out. How many people have used the IOSH advice number to gain a clearer picture? Communication in my experience is the key and the way H&S professionals can deal with people in helping them to understand and safety and work safely. I think the quality of some professionals is not as good as it can be and maybe that was a drive of recruitment in the sector. I take a H&S team on next week in a new role heading up the H&S function of a company, my first task is to create trust in what I want and buy in by the employees into my vision. How, with hard work, passion, enthusiasm and commitment, not shying away from decisions or referring to the fact it is up to them to make an assessment. Ensuring my team understand what I expect and what I want to deliver as a function and that they are coached if required to ensure we all sing from the same hymn sheet. A bit of a rant but my two pence worth :)
TSC  
#21 Posted : 22 August 2012 14:27:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
TSC

The assessment quote is not aimed at risk assessments or them not doing paperwork and taking responsibility but if asked to give clear guidance on a subject.
John M  
#22 Posted : 22 August 2012 14:37:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John M

#11 Ah shucks - I thought I had a soul mate. Jon
John M  
#23 Posted : 22 August 2012 14:54:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John M

Only last week we had a tender submitted by a small specialist company with fewer than 5 employees (3 in fact). Their expertise is laser alignment of pumps . We knew that they were a small outfit but with a good history and reputation. Usual contractor questions and request for certain documents including H&S policy. The returned policy was 114 pages long, produced by safety bods affiliated to a bank. Totally and utterly irrelevant to the work undertaken . We called the boss in to discuss the intended work. They got the job and on his departure I showed him the H&S policy document in the bin. The baseman was not impressed and made it his business to tackle the bank. We accepted the model policy advanced by the HSE. Jon Jon
NLivesey  
#24 Posted : 22 August 2012 15:49:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NLivesey

In answer to the question, it purely depends on the perspective. The general press will keep picking on it because it's an easy headline grabber, regardless of the potential beneficial effect it can have. When something goes wrong they're quick enough to ask 'Why didn't someone do something?', when a local council wants a blanket excuse for stopping something the headline wil be 'blah, blah, blah... gone mad'. Good news and success very rarely pulls in the numbers that bad news or 'sticking it to the man' does. An often unfortunate fact of life. In terms of practitioners themselves I'm lucky to have not met many that I'd consider to be a bad representation of the profession. Most are doing it for the right reasons and it shows, although sometimes this passion can be misinterpretted. For the general workforce our role can be something of an enigma. I've recently been told by someone who's stepped into the profession that they often regarded the H&S advisor's post as an easy ride, a view that many others had also held to his knowledge. There's been something of a dawning realisation that the HSEA post is a demanding role, often because of managing the personalities and relationships within the organisation... and then taking into account the decision making process when there happens to be tricky issue. Maybe that's the problem, people fear what they don't understand and they don't understand our place in the food chain.
pete48  
#25 Posted : 22 August 2012 16:02:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

With apologies to GB for momentarily hijacking his topic. The high voltage example given by Zimmy is a good indication of how we can be seen in poor regard. The facts are that I advised Zimmy of the existence of technical standards from both the USA and shortly thereafter Euro stds (ECE R100) that cover the definition of high voltage with respect to battery driven power trains (hybrid vehicles). The values differ from those generally applied in industry to fixed systems. Potential for confusion, you bet ! I feel this amptly demonstrates the difficulty that we all have as we trawl across the wide expanse that practitioners often have to embrace. We should always have an open mind and recognise that there are more ways than one to peel a strawberry. Every trade and profession has members of differing skill and experience and life is full of variables. No wonder then that perfection is a dream. I dont think that H'n'S is held in such poor regard and I don't think that individual examples of poor judgement or application are of any significance, in this regard, to anyone other than prospecting journalists with a story to write. I can give just as many examples of poor regard for, accountants, estate agents, HR staff, maintenance engineers and so on and so on. What I think we can do to reduce the risk is to make sure we mutually support each other and see the importance of embracing varying views and opinions on best solutions. Finally, this forum is, of course, a mere speck-indeed a virtual speck, in the world of H'n'S and anyone who take this to be representative of the sector needs to get out more ;-) p48
jwk  
#26 Posted : 22 August 2012 16:04:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

There's a little swing bridge between the rest of the world and my village, and for 20 days in September it has to be raised so that anti-corrosion work can be carried out. Now, there is another route to everywhere else, but it's a 5 mile detour. Not a problem that, is it? Well, it is if you want to walk, cycle or (even) ride a horse into town. It happens that there are people in the village who do want to do these weird things, and I'm one of them. So I rang the council. They had, of course, not even considered the bizarre idea that there might be people who want to get about without burning fossil fuels, so our discussion got nowhere. What's that got to do with this thread? Well, I suggested that maybe the council could arrange for a temporary ferry (there used to be one back in the day). You could feel rather than hear the sucking of breath through clenched teeth; 'Health and Safety wouldn't allow that' said the man from the Council. Now, once I'd pointed out what I do and what I am he swiftly dropped that line of argument, but there, in a nutshell, was at least 75% of why we have a bad name. Council (or other) functionary caught out being thoughtless and lazy immediately jumps to H&S to justify an incomplete decision, or, in this case, an incomplete decision and a blank refusal to spend money. There are some poor professionals about, I've interviewed a few in my time, but most of the ones I've worked with have been thoughtful and practical people, with probably more humility and compassion than the average Daily Wail journo, John
David Bannister  
#27 Posted : 22 August 2012 16:15:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Clairel, when I'm asked what I do I respond with "I save lives" and I sometime start off presentations with that bald statement. Whether I do or I don't it certainly stimulates conversation during which I can explain why H&S is my profession, my interest and my current job, why it interests me, why it is important to be done well and is a business benefit when done well. The public perception and media portrayal of our profession can eventually be changed if we (all) continue to be positive about our achievements and champion good practice with anybody who will listen. To those who only see what we do as a job, carry on doing it well. And if anyone says I don't save lives they are entitled to their opinion, but I know that I have probably saved vision, mobility, hearing, lungs and bladders etc, all of which contribute to life. Have I really saved a life? Probably. That's good enough for me. How do you think traffic wardens and tax officials feel about their jobs? They can't claim what I can claim.
jwk  
#28 Posted : 22 August 2012 16:33:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Well said David. Me and my team work in services that supports people with complex disabilities and at end of life. We save lives, we really do. We do it in conjunction with other people, most notably our Clinical Quality team, but it's because of us that we manage things like bed-rails, hoists, slings and oxygen concentrators properly. I know we save lives, because before we developed and implemented our life-saving systems, we killed somebody. We got prosecuted for that, and believe me, it won't happen again, John
John J  
#29 Posted : 22 August 2012 17:35:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John J

david bannister wrote:
Clairel, when I'm asked what I do I respond with "I save lives" and I sometime start off presentations with that bald statement. Whether I do or I don't it certainly stimulates conversation during which I can explain why H&S is my profession, my interest and my current job, why it interests me, why it is important to be done well and is a business benefit when done well. The public perception and media portrayal of our profession can eventually be changed if we (all) continue to be positive about our achievements and champion good practice with anybody who will listen. To those who only see what we do as a job, carry on doing it well. And if anyone says I don't save lives they are entitled to their opinion, but I know that I have probably saved vision, mobility, hearing, lungs and bladders etc, all of which contribute to life. Have I really saved a life? Probably. That's good enough for me. How do you think traffic wardens and tax officials feel about their jobs? They can't claim what I can claim.
They too can argue they save lives. The traffic warden by keeping the roads clear and so avoiding accidents and allowing free traffic flow for the emergency services (and safety advisors with their underpants on the outside). The tax officials collect taxes that directly pay for the emergency services, the welfare state, the NHS. Perhaps they have even more right to claim they save lives. Don't get me wrong we have an important role but it's about helping get a job done, cost effectively and safely. We are no more heroes than the bloke who diligently carries out their role as a janitor or the guy who leans on the spanner to make sure the gas pipes done up properly.
Clairel  
#30 Posted : 22 August 2012 17:49:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

John J wrote:
Don't get me wrong we have an important role but it's about helping get a job done, cost effectively and safely. We are no more heroes than the bloke who diligently carries out their role as a janitor or the guy who leans on the spanner to make sure the gas pipes done up properly.
Exactly. You could argue that the lollipop lady saves lives. Bet she doesn't start off a conversation about her job like that though. Somthing about this profession that peopel seem to justify their own existence by saying they 'save lives'. I MAY have HELPED to prevent an accident that MAY have caused either an injury or death. Having been an inspector and issued prohibition notices on items that were considered to be dangerous that is especially the case. BUT that is not saving a life. Not like a doctor or a fireman etc. They actually , physically, save lives.
frankc  
#31 Posted : 22 August 2012 18:03:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

Clairel wrote:
Somthing about this profession that peopel seem to justify their own existence by saying they 'save lives'.
How many people died in accidents at work last year? How many more WOULD have died had there been no H&S in place? Ergo, we saved lives. Keep it up David and the rest :-)
John J  
#32 Posted : 22 August 2012 18:11:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John J

frankc wrote:
Clairel wrote:
Somthing about this profession that peopel seem to justify their own existence by saying they 'save lives'.
How many people died in accidents at work last year? How many more WOULD have died had there been no H&S in place? Ergo, we saved lives. Keep it up David and the rest :-)
Ergo we also fail to save lives.
Garfield Esq  
#33 Posted : 22 August 2012 18:37:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Garfield Esq

Seabee81 wrote:
In the oil industry, especially the North Sea, Health and Safety is now regarded as an essential part of the process. If anyone outside of the industry has a negative opinion on what I do I point out tragedies such as the Piper Alpha or the Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill and say it's my job to help prevent anything like that from happening again. ...and yes, as Zimmy has pointed out. H&S professionals meddling in things they know nothing about gives us a bad name.
Agreed! H&S is an extremely important part of O&G. Its a full-time job to calculate and measure performance relating to LTIs / MTIs / TRIRs / KPIs / Objectives / Targets every day of every week of every month of every year to make sure your tender is better than your competitors!
frankc  
#34 Posted : 22 August 2012 19:20:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

John J wrote:
frankc wrote:
Clairel wrote:
Somthing about this profession that peopel seem to justify their own existence by saying they 'save lives'.
How many people died in accidents at work last year? How many more WOULD have died had there been no H&S in place? Ergo, we saved lives. Keep it up David and the rest :-)
Ergo we also fail to save lives.
As long as we have helped to save SOME, that's as much as we can do. There will always be some who cut corners and take chances like the lone worker in a cherry picker without a harness in a previous thread.
TSC  
#35 Posted : 22 August 2012 19:20:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
TSC

I think the point is if H&S is required but more of are we really deemed to be held in poor regard. We all have our own way of delivering information and you can argus yes we help save lives but is that the H&S professionals or the companies that enbrace H&S?
kdrew  
#36 Posted : 23 August 2012 09:02:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kdrew

My approach has always been to quote some crude statistics and ask a simple question. In the '60s 2000 people died at work each year, nowadays it less than 200. Part of that improvement is down to improvements in H&S at work. Is that a bad thing?
Zimmy  
#37 Posted : 23 August 2012 09:25:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

The action I took the other week did save a life. A slip-up on the test rig lead to a fault that placed one of our electrician holding onto a live neutral and in contact with earth. The RCD I had fitted to the rig tripped before the chap knew the wire was live. A failure on the part of the electrician perhaps as he did make a technical mistake by stepping outside the method statement and RA's of the job, but a the back-up system I insisted on worked. I didn't save a live but I had a big part in it.
Zimmy  
#38 Posted : 23 August 2012 09:26:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

and I feel epic Clairel :-)
hilary  
#39 Posted : 23 August 2012 09:36:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I don't think I save lives. I think the measures I take ensure that accidents and incidents can be prevented, but ultimately I am not at the sharp end and I can only implement measures that help others work more safely and help them to protect themselves and their colleagues. If the idiot concerned decides not to take my advice, not to utilise the equipment at their disposal, and to do something completely stupid and off the wall, does that make me responsible if they have an accident? It's a double edged sword, if you save lives then you must be equally responsible when some idiot decides to circumnavigate all the safety measures. There is a degree of personal responsiblity (contributory negligence) that everyone must take to ensure health and safety and as a H&S person I cannot be everywhere, doing everything. I don't save lives, but I make it possible for others to do so.
NR  
#40 Posted : 23 August 2012 10:29:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NR

Clairel if you came up with answers like this working where I do you would have every reason to hate your job. Given your reponse I suspect your measure of "good" H&S is LTIR, RIR, AFR etc. Have you ever considered the word prevention? "We had a huge debate on that recently and I think most people accepted that in fact we do not 'save' lives as there is no way of knowing whether what we do actually does save lives. It may it may not. A Doctor saves lives. A Paramedic saves lives. A health and safety practitioner does not save lives. If you need an ego boost go and retrain in the medical profession." Do you believe the person who invented the seat belt has saved lives or is it just the medics who treat people not wearing them in a crash that save lives. Just a thought.
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