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thunderchild  
#1 Posted : 23 July 2018 17:16:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

The met office have now issued a weather warning, now I appreciate that it is mainly directed at those outside in it all day. I have a factory that is like a greenhouse with strenuoius activity. I have massive concerns regarding the temprature. I know the regs have no upper limit but I feel its dangerous and have said so. The tempratures are only set to rise further this week, its going to get unbearable.

Are there any cases of companies or individuals being prosecuted due to an accident / death at work due to heat? Other than in the likes of a foundary?

I have forwarded on all the info, requested additional water and air con but gotten nowhere. I do honestly believe we will have an accident / incident due to the heat. I am genuinly concerned, our offices are no better as all but 1 air con unit doesn't work.

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 23 July 2018 19:12:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

SAS recruits in the Brecon Beacons 2017
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 23 July 2018 19:12:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

SAS recruits in the Brecon Beacons 2017
thunderchild  
#4 Posted : 23 July 2018 19:14:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Yes, I had thought about that however that won't help my argument. Can't associate it with being in a factory.
Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 23 July 2018 19:40:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Turn it the other way = the regs state if the majority make representation about the working temperature then the employer MUST act.

In a previous employment we issued salt tablets as well as water during hot weather in an already hot factory.

The lack of salt can be just as debilitating if employees guzzle too much water

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 23 July 2018 19:40:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Turn it the other way = the regs state if the majority make representation about the working temperature then the employer MUST act.

In a previous employment we issued salt tablets as well as water during hot weather in an already hot factory.

The lack of salt can be just as debilitating if employees guzzle too much water

thunderchild  
#7 Posted : 23 July 2018 19:45:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

I said today that it may come down to the workforce revolting before something gets done, or one of them collapsing. :-(
stonecold  
#8 Posted : 24 July 2018 04:07:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

People in this country always worry about a bit of sun....silly really. I lived and worked in Spain for 3 years and it was hot all the time and people just got on with it without moaning. Just make sure the workers have access to cold drinks and have adequate breaks, nothing else you can do or need to do really.

Edited by user 24 July 2018 04:13:51(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

chris.packham  
#9 Posted : 24 July 2018 07:20:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Years ago I worked for over three years in Libya. Temperatures well in excess of 34 deg C were not uncommon. However, I was based on the coast where relative humidity was often in excess of 90%! That was a real problem. At our production centre further in to the desert the temperature was often several degrees higher. However, as relative humidity was much lower it felt more comfortable.

We provided plenty of water and salt tablets. For a time this was a construction site (tanker loading terminal) but I do not recall ever having had a problem among our workforce due to heat. UV was by far the more concerning.

Chris

ExDeeps  
#10 Posted : 24 July 2018 07:26:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ExDeeps

It's more complicated than simply "it's hot" I'm afraid. Although it is fairly simple to set low temperature limits the high temperature is much more difficult to establish as it comes down to personal factors such as age, fitness and external factors such as humidity and also how long someone has had to get used to the heat. My lot, in coal fired power stations, have some detailed guidance on rest to work periods and use of a wet bulb thermometer which I fancy is either way above what you need or can implement for a few weeks. But, our contractors, when asked, have almost exactly the same guidance on wet bulb tems and the application of work to rest ratios so there is info out there, but it tends to be couched in academic terms.

You probably need to take a sensible approach and ensure that all the simple things are in place first such as air movement (Are filters clear?) water is available, where appropriate that you do not have excessive PPE requirements and rest breaks can be taken somewhere coolish / out of the sun.

Hope this helps,

jim

thunderchild  
#11 Posted : 24 July 2018 08:40:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Temprature yesterday was above 40 degrees. struggling to get them extra water let alone salt tablets. air movement consists of fans blowing hot air around and we have grinding and welding activities adding to the mix. They don't even wear the required PPE half the time which is adding to my concerns regarding an accident due to lapses in concentration.

All I have been able to do is ask people to keep an eye on one another.

bunster  
#12 Posted : 24 July 2018 12:47:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bunster

Even though there is no maximum temperature employees can still be at risk from thermal stress.

The HSE produce a good thermal stress risk assessment document which can demonstrate whether employees are at risk or not

http://www.hse.gov.uk/temperature/assets/docs/heat-stress-checklist.pdf

This may help you in your cause to justify expenditure for improvements

thanks 1 user thanked bunster for this useful post.
thunderchild on 24/07/2018(UTC)
Ackashaun  
#13 Posted : 24 July 2018 14:19:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Ackashaun

Originally Posted by: thunderchild Go to Quoted Post

Temprature yesterday was above 40 degrees. struggling to get them extra water let alone salt tablets. air movement consists of fans blowing hot air around and we have grinding and welding activities adding to the mix. They don't even wear the required PPE half the time which is adding to my concerns regarding an accident due to lapses in concentration.

All I have been able to do is ask people to keep an eye on one another.

Under the welfare regs water should always be available and easily accessible so why are you struggling to get them water? If it is bottled the the company must still supply a ready supply of water or they are breaking the welfare regulations. They should also be allowing employees to take regular rest breaks above and beyond what they are entitled too if the temperature gets too hot. A quick 5-10 minute break whilst having a drink will work wonders for their health and morale.

As for employees not wearing PPE as a safety officer and a GMB rep they are leaving themselves wide open for a disciplinary of a gross misconduct charge if they or anybody else is hurt due to their actions. Is the PPE suitable if they are not wearing it, again the company must supply PPE that is suitable for those wearing it, PPE is not a one fits all type of kit in my experience.

thunderchild  
#14 Posted : 24 July 2018 14:19:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Thank you Bunster. I'll do a few of those tomorrow.

thunderchild  
#15 Posted : 24 July 2018 14:26:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Originally Posted by: Ackashaun Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: thunderchild Go to Quoted Post

Temprature yesterday was above 40 degrees. struggling to get them extra water let alone salt tablets. air movement consists of fans blowing hot air around and we have grinding and welding activities adding to the mix. They don't even wear the required PPE half the time which is adding to my concerns regarding an accident due to lapses in concentration.

All I have been able to do is ask people to keep an eye on one another.

Under the welfare regs water should always be available and easily accessible so why are you struggling to get them water? If it is bottled the the company must still supply a ready supply of water or they are breaking the welfare regulations. They should also be allowing employees to take regular rest breaks above and beyond what they are entitled too if the temperature gets too hot. A quick 5-10 minute break whilst having a drink will work wonders for their health and morale.

As for employees not wearing PPE as a safety officer and a GMB rep they are leaving themselves wide open for a disciplinary of a gross misconduct charge if they or anybody else is hurt due to their actions. Is the PPE suitable if they are not wearing it, again the company must supply PPE that is suitable for those wearing it, PPE is not a one fits all type of kit in my experience.

Yes they have been told about water, breaks rests etc. Breeachesin the regs etc. I cannot make them do it however. "you can lead a horese to water...."

Diciplinary action......yeah I'd like to see some of that.

hopeful  
#16 Posted : 24 July 2018 15:37:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hopeful

|I would be wary of offering or insisting on salt tablets as there is differing medical opinion on this. Years ago I lived in Kuwait and for the first few months we were given salt tablets but this was stopped because of negative health risks. Other aspects to consider is can the uniform be relaxed - shorts and t-shirts perhaps? As others have said getting more water available, educating the staff to drink and be efficient. It is very difficult but you see people in hot countries working all day in jeans and it astounds me how they cope - we are all different

MikeKelly  
#17 Posted : 24 July 2018 16:55:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MikeKelly

Yes, salt tablets are definitely out and isotonic drinks are in.

Cool rather than cold water, places to rest.

A heat stress policy should be developed addressing WBGTemperatures, ie taking into account relative humidity, radiant heat, workload, acclimatisation, appropriate PPE etc. All this can be found on the net

I had the pleasure of developing a policy in Abu Dhabi sometime ago-oil and gas company and one guy was expected to work in 74 degrees C-not for long-big deal. eh?He had to check for leaks in a sound proof box enclosing a jet engine driving a power train-designed by RR for Derbyshire, I guess!

Lots of heat stress but it was mainly labourers from Bangladesh, Indonesia , Phillipines etc NOT company employees-sounds like Qatar and the world cup construction debacle, eh? Something IOSH could do much more on, oh wait a minute haven't IOSH basically shut down the local IOSH branch in the region for financial reasons? [See the current thread ]

As for disciplinary action -trade union reps do not have duties, 'merely' functions so outside the scope for this. It all sounds like an unmet need for training, information and engagement perhaps. Involve them in the development of the policy? What are industrial relations like generally?

I think these temperatures are likely to become much more prevalent in future, eh?     Regards

Mike                  

thanks 1 user thanked MikeKelly for this useful post.
sdkirby on 26/07/2018(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#18 Posted : 25 July 2018 08:32:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Firstly that fact that there are no legal examples set in a factory should not matter. Overheating can be a serious H&S issue and the business should recognise that and do something about it (starting with some sort of risk assessment to establish exactly what sort of risk it is).  Obviously you should not be thinking about shutting the factory down or anything like that, unless your risk assessment   establishes that it is really bad.  You should be looking at the sort of controls that have been mentioned eg more breaks to cool off and have a drink, job rotation in and out of the hottest areas. You may also look at the hours that people work. In the warmer parts of Europe, people come into work earlier and leave in the afternoon, so avoiding the hottest time of day.

Evidence is piling up that for industry at least there has been a significant drop in productivity due the current heat wave, which is a another reason to try to optimise your work practices.    

thunderchild  
#19 Posted : 25 July 2018 12:16:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Thanks for the responses.

I have advised, I have assessed but to no avail. Head + Wall = headache.

Management do not see an issue so there is nothing for them to deal with. The fact I disagree as do the workforce well.....nothing more I can do.

Gping to do a couple of heat stress assessment although I don't know why I am bothering if I'm honest.

chris42  
#20 Posted : 25 July 2018 12:32:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I remember reading something some time ago from the World Health organisation regarding workplace temp. I sure it said that above 24 degrees the effectiveness of your employees drops at this point and then continues the higher it gets. Less work is sometimes a motivator to the powers that be to do something. Loss of production of only a few percent can be significant. Not only that a complaint to the HSE and visit will have them looking at everything not just workplace temp.

I couldn’t find what I had read but this seems to be on a similar line and I’m sure all unions have a stance on this point.

https://www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2014/08/TowebTemperature-at-Work-Information-Sheet-Aug14-update2.pdf

Chris

Mr.Flibble2.0  
#21 Posted : 25 July 2018 15:48:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

In a previous role I worked for a well known bread manufacture. Wearing trousers, white coat, high-vis, hat, hair net and snood in close proximity to the ovens and lines was always fun in the summer.

Regular breaks, somewhere to cool down if you have the luxury of air con, job rotation if possible and plenty of fluids.

Give it a few months and everyone will be complaining it’s too cold and slipping over on ice.

thunderchild  
#22 Posted : 26 July 2018 07:21:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Mr Fibble, as to your suggestions I have put these forward and its, nope, nope, nope and nope.

As to winter we have no working heating eiether so our shop floor regularaly dips below freezing and lets not get sarted on a roof that leaks so bad that you get wetter inside than you do outside! Our offices currently have no running hot water either.

Tell me again why I stay? At the moment I'm not quite sure.......

Kate  
#23 Posted : 26 July 2018 07:47:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I see that HSE have made their home page topical by putting a direct, prominent link to their heat stress guidance on it subtitled "Is it too hot to work?"

And my captcha is tBkW - to bake.

thunderchild  
#24 Posted : 26 July 2018 07:50:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Kate, yes I saw that yesterday but it doesn't help me. There is no maximum so therefor we dont have a problem.....aparently.

Kate  
#25 Posted : 26 July 2018 08:17:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

From what you've described I think your workplace / employer is entirely beyond any help!

Roundtuit  
#26 Posted : 26 July 2018 08:21:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Time to polish the CV - sounds like a management from the Victorian era where anything goes unless the law specifically says otherwise

Roundtuit  
#27 Posted : 26 July 2018 08:21:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Time to polish the CV - sounds like a management from the Victorian era where anything goes unless the law specifically says otherwise

A Kurdziel  
#28 Posted : 26 July 2018 08:24:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Originally Posted by: thunderchild Go to Quoted Post

Kate, yes I saw that yesterday but it doesn't help me. There is no maximum so therefor we dont have a problem.....aparently.

You do have a problem but it is not the heat it is the management!

thunderchild  
#29 Posted : 26 July 2018 08:31:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: thunderchild Go to Quoted Post

Kate, yes I saw that yesterday but it doesn't help me. There is no maximum so therefor we dont have a problem.....aparently.

You do have a problem but it is not the heat it is the management!

Hell yes but I am powerless to change it.

Mark-W  
#30 Posted : 26 July 2018 09:26:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mark-W

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post
SAS recruits in the Brecon Beacons 2017

My understanding was the MOD wasn't prosecuted due to the nature of the activity but was given a censure. Which is tant amount to a prosecution.

Not sure how much contact you have had with serving soldiers and SAS recruits? Their mindset is like nothing I've ever come across before. They have almost unserving discipline. They will keep going until they collapse. Apart from medical reasons where the training team will remove you from selction, they don't remove anyone during the course. It's all about knowing your limits and knowing when to quit. But saying that, you can get a stand up fail for joining the SAS. They need a certain number of soldiers to conduct thew training but not enough space for all of those that complete the training. So you can complete the course and at the end of it, get a "well done, you've completed the course but we don't have any room ffor you"

Mypoint is, those recruits will of been trained soldiers, and would have been given the knowledge about heat issues, they chose to ignore it and sadly paid the ultimate price. The training team can only do so much

chris42  
#31 Posted : 26 July 2018 09:50:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Out of interest what actual temperature is it in the workplace? 

Why have none of the employees reported the situation to the HSE (especially during the winter)? Fear of job even though it can be anonymous.?

I dislike these threads where we get the solution of leave ASAP, leaving the organisation to continue with bad practice and at the expense of the other workers. I don’t see why good people should lose or change job just because the senior management are muppets. There has to be another alternative. Perhaps FFI or fines should be doubled / trebled where good advice from Safety person is ignored.

Chris

thunderchild  
#32 Posted : 26 July 2018 12:05:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

Out of interest what actual temperature is it in the workplace? 

Why have none of the employees reported the situation to the HSE (especially during the winter)? Fear of job even though it can be anonymous.?

I dislike these threads where we get the solution of leave ASAP, leaving the organisation to continue with bad practice and at the expense of the other workers. I don’t see why good people should lose or change job just because the senior management are muppets. There has to be another alternative. Perhaps FFI or fines should be doubled / trebled where good advice from Safety person is ignored.

Chris

Chris,

As you say, its fear of losing our job which includes me. I stay because if I don't fight for these guys no one will. Even though I am banging my head against a wall I am at least still doing it. I just feel helpless.

chris42  
#33 Posted : 27 July 2018 08:37:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I suspect if you complained about the heat to the HSE they would do nothing at this moment. I think if there was a complaint about the cold come winter months then they may investigate.

However, is there anyone in any type of senior role who you could get on your side? that may be able to lend support for H&S issues. Sometimes senior people may be influenced by others in the organisation (Who has the MD’s ear so to speak). It is a slow process but if you can do this you may make headway all be it slowly.

Have others in your industry (especially if they are known to your company) had similar issues which have resulted in fines / prosecutions / injured employees.

There is I fear no hope for some employers, they live in the dark ages and would be right at home in Victorian Britain. I also have one of these, unnecessarily hard work sometimes. Even though you may not win every battle, providing you are still moving the company forward H&S wise, then all good, but if it is a complete dead end, then why did they employ you (or anyone). If of course there is no more moving forward you may be employed but it will eat away at you, so for your sake best move. Perhaps if the company realises it can’t keep H&S people and they all say the same thing, it will learn (perhaps not – I was the 4th H&S person in as many years – I know why).

I note this is not your first thread of this type, ultimately if there are practices that are so dangerous, that cannot or should not be ignored then they have to be reported. The HSE allow anonymous reporting and could you live with yourself if you did nothing and someone was seriously hurt, even if it cost you your job.

Best of Luck

Chris

thunderchild  
#34 Posted : 27 July 2018 10:33:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Chris,

Unfortunsatly all the managers who have clout are singing the same tune so I have gone as far as I can.

You're right this is not the first thread like this, I did walk in the end from the last business with no job to go to as they were getting round RIDDOR as they were already being prosecuted for a similar accident and it was the last straw for me.

I really seem to know how to pick them! The last H&S person left because he got frustrated with getting knowhere. As I said, I stay (for the moment) so the operatives do have someone fighting for them and to be fair they do know that. I just wish I could win a battle every now and again, its been a while. Plus 2 short stints on your CV really don't look that good.

pseudonym  
#35 Posted : 27 July 2018 11:46:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pseudonym

Yeah, I have walked away without the security of a job to go to - not an esy decision to make, but I decided that staying would have been worse for me personally and  professionally than a gap in my CV - it took a while but eventually I'm back in work (all be it in a temp. post, covering for sickness) but I still maintain I made the right decision to walk ...

I wouldn't worry too much about having a few short employment details on your CV, you can explain it aeay if you try Best of luck however you drcide to play this particular conundrum

P.

Hsquared14  
#36 Posted : 27 July 2018 11:47:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

I wouldn't generally make this sort of suggestion but I think this case warrants it.  Make sure you have put everything you have said to your management team in writing and that you have submitted it to them in writing, make a diary note of when you gave it to them.  Encourage one of the shop floor workers to contact the HSE on their whistleblower line and then wait for whatever happens next!!

nic168  
#37 Posted : 27 July 2018 12:08:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
nic168

Thunderchild,  I have a similar problem here. Office environment and some parts are worse than others, I provided the Group Managers with advice and guidance last month which was tweaked and made acceptable then distributed. I have repeatedly made the point to the managers that I am the advisor, I have no authority or direct responsibility for their staff that is their job ( this is why they are paid loads of money).

Today I was asked by one to do Thermal risk assessments as they did not feel able to complete the HSE chart themselves because of the difficult question about PPE........ I have suggested that they talk/listen to their staff.

TGIF

A Kurdziel  
#38 Posted : 27 July 2018 12:51:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The question is: are we H&S professionals, magical talisman that protect the company from prosecution by sprinkling risk assessments all over the place, or are we just fall guys who are there to take the flack if it all goes wrong?

descarte8  
#39 Posted : 30 July 2018 12:13:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
descarte8

May I suggest, for those working in extreme heat environments, where work rates and PPE may be contributing to the heat stress risk, that you use a indicator of temperature other than just dry bulb?  A WBGT measurement can be used together with industry standard guidelines to accurately assess "safe" work / rest regimes.

If you are doing your risk assessments (as you stated above) include this and make your recommendation as unnacceptable risk, with the recommendation for a work/rest regime as indicated by your WBGT analysis (taking into account clothing, ppe, work rates etc etc...)

The management then do not have a fall back on to the risk assessment comfort blanket - if they go against their own risk assessment advice, and the employees have a weapon to use to take to the authroties / unions to demonstrate the conditions they are working are not acceptable.

The management can also then see easier, the £ cost of improvement can result more productivity as the work/rest regime (amount of work done) will decrease as the heat risk decreases - sometimes just hiring a large fan blowing in cooler air can reduce the effects of heat significantly.

The chart here is quite useful, but much more detailed advice is available around online if you google:

https://ksi.uconn.edu/prevention/wet-bulb-globe-temperature-monitoring/

https://ksi.uconn.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1222/2015/03/Work-to-Rest-WBGT.png

Other practical advice especially regarding PPE or respirators would be the use of battery / tubo hoods which blow air into the breathing zone, rather than hot sweaty face masks - double as eye and respiratory protection, though expensive initial outlay, can recoup costs pretty quickly compared to disposable mask types (better protection and no need for face fit test / failures)

Edited by user 30 July 2018 12:14:59(UTC)  | Reason: Linked directly to image instead of webpage - kept orinigal link for ref

safetyamateur  
#40 Posted : 30 July 2018 12:16:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

https://www.iosh.co.uk/News/Working-sensibly-during-hot-weather.aspx

Stuff like this doesn't help

Minimum legal temperatures. Too hot = 30deg.

Edited by user 30 July 2018 12:19:22(UTC)  | Reason: Forgot to specify the stuff

Roundtuit  
#41 Posted : 30 July 2018 12:52:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Too hot = 30C?

Take it you have never worked in catering.

Simlarly a lot of food manufacturing would cease if such a limit were imposed.

Roundtuit  
#42 Posted : 30 July 2018 12:52:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Too hot = 30C?

Take it you have never worked in catering.

Simlarly a lot of food manufacturing would cease if such a limit were imposed.

safetyamateur  
#43 Posted : 31 July 2018 08:37:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

And this advice is being dished out by IOSH

wizzpete  
#44 Posted : 02 August 2018 14:49:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wizzpete

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post
SAS recruits in the Brecon Beacons 2017

My understanding was the MOD wasn't prosecuted due to the nature of the activity but was given a censure. Which is tant amount to a prosecution.

Not quite right, but a Crown Censure is the equivalence of a prosecution.  The Crown cannot prosecute the Crown, hence the Censure instead; the nature of the activity was not the reason.  Were the MOD a civilian employer, they would have been prosecuted.

The working temperature is part of a risk assessment but if you got a management that can't see the issue then you are up against it.  It's the way of most of us to 'make do' and push though it (those 3 poor beggars on Brecon a testament to that thinking) and regrettably the more days pass with high temperatures with no-one actually becoming ill just reinforces the management view that these is no issue

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