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Roundtuit  
#1 Posted : 06 September 2019 10:44:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49600499

Having brought up two children how did I manage without a reminder to remove my precious off-spring from the vehicle when parking up?

Perhaps self driving cars of the future could be fitted with docks for self wheeling buggies so the child is taken to and removed from the vehicle without any parental involvement whatsoever.

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Svick1984 on 06/09/2019(UTC)
biker1  
#2 Posted : 06 September 2019 11:11:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

For goodness' sake! The car makers are being blamed for not doing enough to warn parents of children in the car? Aren't the parents supposed to be responsible for this, or is it the usual mantra of someone else being responsible for their stupidity? Over half of the cases were where parents forgot they had a child in the car?! I've never been able to forget this. Are we seeing a generation of muppets populating the world?

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Svick1984 on 06/09/2019(UTC)
hilary  
#3 Posted : 06 September 2019 11:16:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I know it's Friday and ripe for a Friday thread but really????

How can you "forget" you have a child in the car?  I managed to bring up two children and as much as sometimes I would have liked to "forget" they existed, I never actually managed it.  You cannot blame car manufacturers for rank stupidity - I mean, should these people even be let loose on the roads?

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CptBeaky on 06/09/2019(UTC), Svick1984 on 06/09/2019(UTC), webstar on 06/09/2019(UTC), biker1 on 06/09/2019(UTC)
Bigmac1  
#4 Posted : 06 September 2019 11:21:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

800 people over 20 years forgot in the USA, I know life can be stressful but I agree how on earth can you forget a child on the back seat

ttxela  
#5 Posted : 06 September 2019 11:22:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Hmmm, yeah. I've forgotten a lot of stuff in my time. It's pretty hard to believe you could forget your child was in the car.

The fellow in the article come across as pretty genuine though and I suppose it's just possible a stressed parent out of the normal routine may just do this. I remember a story about my aunt (in the days when it was perfectly normal to leave a child in a pram outside a shop) parking the pram with the baby in and tying the dog to it outside a shop then coming out untying the dog then walking a fair way home with just the dog before she realised... People do have brain farts....

However to try and mitigate anything people might do or forget to do seems a fools errand. However much stuff you create alarms and warning for someone will go that extra step.

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Svick1984 on 06/09/2019(UTC), andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
ttxela  
#6 Posted : 06 September 2019 11:27:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: Bigmac1 Go to Quoted Post

800 people over 20 years forgot in the USA, I know life can be stressful but I agree how on earth can you forget a child on the back seat


I am often reminded of one occasion when I arrived home and put the kettle on for a nice cup of tea when the phone rang and it was my wife who was at the local petrol station. I had forgotten she was in the car with me and she had got out to browse the shop and I had paid for the fuel and driven home without her.

Fear not both my children are now well into their twenties by some miracle...

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nic168 on 06/09/2019(UTC), SJP on 06/09/2019(UTC), Dave5705 on 06/09/2019(UTC), mihai_qa on 07/09/2019(UTC), andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
nic168  
#7 Posted : 06 September 2019 11:42:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
nic168

 Not agreeing with the need to legislate here, but people do have brain farts. I have seen fathers outside nurseries so intent on fixing the baby seat in the car they mislay the toddler. I know a few people who have forgotten the dog, or walked home forgetting the car/bike.

I have not lost a child yet, but nearly mislaid my mother on a shopping trip when I forgot I had dropped her off her and started heading for home, so give me time I may manage to loose one of the tribe or the dog.

When I do it will be my fault.

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ttxela on 06/09/2019(UTC), Yossarian on 09/09/2019(UTC), andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 06 September 2019 11:59:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post
Are we seeing a generation of muppets populating the world?

Unfortunately we are nurturing such persons.

More technology is apparently not the answer https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/297901-ntsb-autopilot-design-flaw-inattentive-driver-led-to-tesla-firetruck-crash

Think the only thing flawed here was that the car didn't execute the driver to the benefit of the gene pool.

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biker1 on 06/09/2019(UTC)
ttxela  
#9 Posted : 06 September 2019 12:34:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

I've just come back from doing our weekly generator checks and realised when I tested it last week I left it in 'stop' mode rather than 'auto' mode. Perhaps not such a serious example of forgetfulness but had we had a significant out of hours power failure several tens of thousand of pounds worth of refrigerated stock would have been lost.

I got away with it, this time.......

Maybe an alarm could be fitted to the generator to alert me if it is left out of 'auto' for a significant amount of time?

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andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
Svick1984  
#10 Posted : 06 September 2019 12:48:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Svick1984

Accidents happen, we all know this (given the respective industries we work in) but to lay the blame at the industries feet and make them take responsibility (rather than themselves) is quite frankly, ridiculous. What next? Make bathroom fitting companies put in a light barrier system that immediately dumps scolding water down the drain if a toddler crosses the threshold, on fear that they should they climb in and scold themselves (assuming hot water has been put in first rather than added afterwards)?

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biker1 on 06/09/2019(UTC)
andybz  
#11 Posted : 06 September 2019 13:21:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andybz

Good to know none of you would ever forget, but 38 child deaths per year in the USA show that real humans can make some awful but genuine mistakes. Human Factors tells us that relying on people to 'not forget' is no enough and we should look for technical solutions whenever we can.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/28/us/nyc-baby-deaths-sunday/index.html

https://humanfactors101.com/2017/05/21/fatal-distraction/

ttxela  
#12 Posted : 06 September 2019 13:46:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: Svick1984 Go to Quoted Post

Accidents happen, we all know this (given the respective industries we work in) but to lay the blame at the industries feet and make them take responsibility (rather than themselves) is quite frankly, ridiculous. What next? Make bathroom fitting companies put in a light barrier system that immediately dumps scolding water down the drain if a toddler crosses the threshold, on fear that they should they climb in and scold themselves (assuming hot water has been put in first rather than added afterwards)?


We already fit TMV's to bathrooms where there might be vulnerable people don't we?

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andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 06 September 2019 14:11:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Why does society need a technological resolution for every matter?

Occassionally the outcome is much better if the human retained control (MCAS)

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Dave5705 on 06/09/2019(UTC)
MrBrightside  
#14 Posted : 06 September 2019 14:53:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrBrightside

Taking personal responsibility for your own actions is no longer prevalent. Why accept responsibility when someone else could have or should have done something.

I'm fat because of McDonalds so it must be their fault;  I got nicked for speeding well it must be the car companies for making cars that go over the speed limit; I broke my arm when I fell over drunk, not my fault it was the pub for selling me alcohol.

What happens when you introduce more and more technology to take out the need for us to think andthat technology fails!? It wasn’t my fault the children got left in the car anddied, the warning device didn’t work so it must be the car companies fault.

It’s a serious worry that with the new generation coming up the days of putting your hand up and saying ‘you know what it was my fault I take full responsibility for my actions’ are lost when it’s easy to say that its societies fault.


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chris42  
#15 Posted : 06 September 2019 15:08:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Didn’t we have a PM who forgot a child at a pub! And we let them run the country!

I have always wondered if it was actually true, but I choose to think of it as real. The storey where someone put their Winnebago on cruse control and then went in the back to make a cuppa while it was going down the highway. Then sued! You know they are out there.

The other one of these stories from an insurance company claim in America was “ I pulled into the wrong drive and hit a tree I didn’t have”. Always makes me think what if their partner or child was stood in the drive.

Its just so easy to imagine these are true (I know the top one is because it was on the news)

Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 06 September 2019 15:17:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

More worryingly that particular Dave was with others - to be fair to the protection officers they were there to look after the PM not his off-spring

andybz  
#17 Posted : 06 September 2019 16:35:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andybz

So a lot of you safety professionals think that human errors can be prevented by people being told to take personnal responsibility and to be more careful. No wonder we keep having major accidents in industry.

The current population of USA is 327 million. Lets assume that 2% of these are children in nursery and each one is dropped off at nursery 200 times per year. That is 1.3 billon drop-offs in a year. 38 deaths in a year is equivalent to one fatal human error per 291 million drop offs. Do you seriously think you could do something 291 million times and guarantee not to make a mistake?

When I think of some of the trivia that is discussed on this forum I am very surprised deaths of very young children does not create a more informed response.

Yes, of course should take care in everything they do but human factors shows us that we are all falible. Sometimes leaving the human in control is a better solution but in others we put in additional layers of protection to account for the possible errors.

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A Kurdziel on 09/09/2019(UTC), ttxela on 10/09/2019(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#18 Posted : 06 September 2019 20:51:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Does everyone need to place their hand on the hot plate to know/demonstrate to others (exhibiting competence) it burns?

Why would a forum dedicated to Occupational Safety and Health (18 years or older in the UK so not the UN definition of a child) actively consider the lower age spectrum (plenty of education/parent forums for that)?

Dave5705  
#19 Posted : 06 September 2019 21:07:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Dave5705

Originally Posted by: andybz Go to Quoted Post

So a lot of you safety professionals think that human errors can be prevented by people being told to take personnal responsibility and to be more careful. Do you seriously think you could do something 291 million times and guarantee not to make a mistake?


No, I don't, but I also know a beeper going off 291 million times is going to do nothing to prevent me from making a mistake! It's more likely to cause me to make one.

I don't even always hear my own phone these days, because every phone, buzzer, beep, and tring sound like every other! I drove my car off the other day with a rear passenger door wide open, nearly wiped it off on a lamppost because 1. I was low on fuel (beep), 2. I hadn't yet pulled my seat belt across me, 3. (beep) my service was due (bing), and 4, a tyre was a little low (2psi) (BING!) oh and my rear passenger door was open!!!!

How on earth did we ever manage?

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mihai_qa on 07/09/2019(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 06 September 2019 21:30:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Please correct me if I have it wrong but I have been brought up to believe in Nuclear there is the "blip, blop" which sounds constantly when everything is alright, and then when everything goes very quiet it is time to bend double with your head between your knees and kiss your......

The exact opposite of the alarm overload often suffered by commercial pilots where maunfacturers choose to add ever increasing technological alarms

Edited by user 06 September 2019 21:31:36(UTC)  | Reason: red induced FFS

RayRapp  
#21 Posted : 07 September 2019 07:54:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I wonder if vehicle manufacturers invent a system which prohibits mothers from opening a car door on the road side to let little Charlie or Maisy out of the vehicle.   

George_Young  
#22 Posted : 07 September 2019 08:04:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
George_Young

Originally Posted by: RayRapp Go to Quoted Post
I wonderifvehicle manufacturers invent asystemwhich prohibits mothersfrom opening a car door on the road sideto let little Charlie or Maisy out of the vehicle.


Hopefully technologies will advance to stop mindless damage to my car from others opening their doors.
hilary  
#23 Posted : 07 September 2019 13:58:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I'm quite sure that a lot of us "safety professionals" are also parents (believe it or not we do have lives which are separate from our chosen professions) and on this occasion we responded as parents because, as someone rightly pointed out, health and safety law does not apply to children and does not apply outside the working environment, so why would we respond as safety professionals?


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mihai_qa on 08/09/2019(UTC)
grim72  
#24 Posted : 09 September 2019 08:42:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

God forbid anyone takes responsibility for their own actions/stupidity. It clearly must be someone else's fault. Pesky car manufacturers not willing to supply a functional brain to drivers!

andybz  
#25 Posted : 09 September 2019 09:01:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andybz

No, I don't, but I also know a beeper going off 291 million times is going to do nothing to prevent me from making a mistake! It's more likely to cause me to make one.


A well engineered alarm would only sound when the error is made, so only one time every 291 million operations. Unfortunately we haev to deal with many badly engineered alarms, including in many industrial facilities.

A Kurdziel  
#26 Posted : 09 September 2019 09:02:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

People can and will forgot anything. It’s not surprising that  a couple hundred people (out of 300 million) have in the past 20 years forgotten their children in the car park. People have left stuff on doorsteps, last week my wife put the washing up liquid in the fridge and the milk under the sink next to the washing machine etc.  The question is what we should do about this? Is this a minor risk   which we can forget about? But a child might come to harm from this so can we just laugh about it? Who should take responsibility for this? If this was a work-related matter then clearly the employer would be expected to make systems which are fail safe (SFARP). In America the duty of care on employers for employers is (in practice) much lower than in the UK but consumer protection laws in the US  put the onus very much on the supplier of goods (including cars) to make them fool proof. This is driven by greedy lawyers (are there any other type?) who can bring huge class actions against big companies for not only compensatory damages but also exemplary punitive damages. 

We could say that the responsibility rests solely with the parents but that also begs the question when does parental absentmindedness become child neglect but that is another can of worms.

 

Who said life is simple?  

Edited by user 09 September 2019 09:30:37(UTC)  | Reason: missing words

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andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
achrn  
#27 Posted : 09 September 2019 09:17:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Having read the article, I don't actually see any of the parents failing to take responsibility.  No-one seems to be advocating transferring responsibility, they seem to be calling for warning devices (which are technologically feasible) to be fitted.  Mr Harrison in particular strikes me as having accepted it was entirely his fault.  He has to live with that, and if a relatively simple device avoids other parents living with the knowledge that they killed their child, I'd be in favour of it. 

Some of the arguments being advanced against this seem to be verging on 'if they are that stupid they deserve their child to be killed', and I'm not at all comfortable with that. I observe that while I've never left either daughter in the car, people make mistakes and sleep deprived parents do dumb things.  I did lose my daughter in a  hotel once, and it was literally physically sickening - I can't imagine what it would be like for a parent to know they killed their child.  I think we're at a pretty sorry place where we've lost so much compassion as society that the general consensus response to a parent in this situation is that it serves them right for being stupid.

Are all warning systems an abdication of responsibility?  Will you be removing beacons and sounders from all your mobile plant?  Are they an abdication of responsibility also?

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A Kurdziel on 09/09/2019(UTC), mihai_qa on 09/09/2019(UTC), CptBeaky on 09/09/2019(UTC), andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#28 Posted : 09 September 2019 09:40:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CptBeaky

Considering it could be as simple as the car issuing a warning and refusing to lock if any of the seatbelts are engaged, I can't see what the problem is.

We can all hate on stupidity, and even momentary lapses in concentration, but I don't think for a minute we are trying to make it somebody else's problem. This is just a request for a safeguard. Nobody should have to die because of a brain fart.

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A Kurdziel on 09/09/2019(UTC), andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
hilary  
#29 Posted : 09 September 2019 09:44:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post

Some of the arguments being advanced against this seem to be verging on 'if they are that stupid they deserve their child to be killed', and I'm not at all comfortable with that. I observe that while I've never left either daughter in the car, people make mistakes and sleep deprived parents do dumb things.  I did lose my daughter in a  hotel once, and it was literally physically sickening - I can't imagine what it would be like for a parent to know they killed their child.  I think we're at a pretty sorry place where we've lost so much compassion as society that the general consensus response to a parent in this situation is that it serves them right for being stupid.

I totally disagree with what you say.  No one is even suggesting that they got what they deserved, it is a tragedy of the highest order.  

However, as a parent you have a duty to look after your offspring, morning, noon, night, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  You cannot expect a car manufacturer to have an alarm just in case you forget you've put a baby in the car seat.  Perhaps cot manufacturers can have an alarm just in case you leave the house, or shopping trolleys can have an alarm to ensure you unpack baby and the shopping at the same time.  At what point do we take responsibility for our own actions?

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post

Are all warning systems an abdication of responsibility?  Will you be removing beacons and sounders from all your mobile plant?  Are they an abdication of responsibility also?


Beacons and sounders are there to warn other people in the area, not the operator of the plant.  The operator of the plant doesn't need beacons and sounders because, presumably, he knows he is there.

fairlieg  
#30 Posted : 09 September 2019 10:09:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post

Having read the article, I don't actually see any of the parents failing to take responsibility.  No-one seems to be advocating transferring responsibility, they seem to be calling for warning devices (which are technologically feasible) to be fitted.  Mr Harrison in particular strikes me as having accepted it was entirely his fault.  He has to live with that, and if a relatively simple device avoids other parents living with the knowledge that they killed their child, I'd be in favour of it. 

Some of the arguments being advanced against this seem to be verging on 'if they are that stupid they deserve their child to be killed', and I'm not at all comfortable with that. I observe that while I've never left either daughter in the car, people make mistakes and sleep deprived parents do dumb things.  I did lose my daughter in a  hotel once, and it was literally physically sickening - I can't imagine what it would be like for a parent to know they killed their child.  I think we're at a pretty sorry place where we've lost so much compassion as society that the general consensus response to a parent in this situation is that it serves them right for being stupid.

Are all warning systems an abdication of responsibility?  Will you be removing beacons and sounders from all your mobile plant?  Are they an abdication of responsibility also?


The problem still exists because of the way we view the problem.  The parents get punished, judged and (in this forum as an example) publicly humiliated but does any of that solve the problem…………

The comments on this forum are to be honest very disappointing.  As professionals we are refusing to accept that we can help prevent this from happening again and again other than relying on someone being a good parent.   I have three and lost one (very briefly 5 mins in Ikea code 99 BTW) I guess some of you all think I am a bad parent or not so bad because my child never died or was taken.  Ikea have a procedure that make it really hard for a lost child to leave the building, what some on this forum are suggesting is that they shouldn’t need it because the solution to a child being lost or taken is to punish an blame a parent who is distracted with two other kids, a busy shop and nagging wife.  There is not necessarily the same outcome, but the thinking is the same

In the past we (society) have punished and blamed but guess what it still happens.  In the right conditions, circumstances, context whatever the case is, anyone can forget anything, you imagine you would never make the same mistake until you do.  The punish and blame in past has not worked so why not build a system so that it is really hard to leave your child a car.  We should be accepting that this type of accident is inevitable, we should be creating solutions on that basis rather that justifying taking no actions by saying “a good parent would never do this”

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andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
MrBrightside  
#31 Posted : 09 September 2019 10:53:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrBrightside

I’m a great fan of using technology to our advantage, however what I’m not great fan of is a reliance on technology to tell us when something is wrong.

As Health & Safety Professionals we look at risk, hazards and the potential for harm. You could argue that the amount of children in left car compared to how many car users with children there are, is in fact a low risk and calling for need to install alarms in all cars is not practicable? I don’t have all the data at hand to make that judgement call.

In work, should we identify the need for alarms on systems to identify an issue we will carry out training, checks so people don’t just rely on the alarms and testing of the system to make sure its effective. Part of that training and checks will be making sure it can’t be switched or circumvented. Part of the duty of care and supervision.

In the real world none of this will take place. No one pays any attention to car alarms, how many people will plug the seat belt in when carrying a load on a seat to stop the alarm going off or turn the alarm off due to a dog on the seat (which you can leave in the car, but that’s a different story in the summer).

Any system will have the option to turn it off for the reason above. So what happens when one person’s turns the alarm off, the second person gets in the car and isn’t aware. But what about a warning message I hear you cry. If you have a new car with fancy screens it pings up loads of warning messages, which trust me you will ignore and just ‘OK’ very quickly.

So now you have a situation where a parent is relying on the car to tell them they have left the children in the back and if they system has failed or been switched off, what then? Whose fault is that?

Going back to us safety professionals what would you write into a Risk Assessment or SSOW with something fitted with a warning alarm? Would you tell people to just wait for the alarm to sound to tell you there is an issue or would you teach people to always carry out an all-around check, to test the alarm to check it is working and to never rely on the alarm?

No one wants to see another child die due to being left in a car, but is putting in an alarm the best course of action. A parent could leave their child behind in a shopping centre or park, do we then fit all children with a proximity alarm. I don’t know the answer, but I know that every time I get in and out of a car I check the backseats regardless if I have my kids with me or not, I got into the habit of doing so to the point it’s now become the norm. I check my tyre pressure and oil levels without waiting for the car to tell me too and once my kids are older I will teach them the same.

There is a risk of putting in an automated system to solve all our problems in life, but what happens when that system fails?

fairlieg  
#32 Posted : 09 September 2019 11:20:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

@ #31

I would not suggest an alarm is the solution (I don’t think I did either) however, what I would say is, any control measure that has the potential to save a life is a good one.  (forget about the hierarchy of controls).

BTW my car actually tells me (says the words) “your mobile phone is still in the vehicle”.  That alert is wasted on my wife if she has a flat battery in her hearing aids.

nic168  
#33 Posted : 09 September 2019 11:30:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
nic168

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Please correct me if I have it wrong but I have been brought up to believe in Nuclear there is the "blip, blop" which sounds constantly when everything is alright, and then when everything goes very quiet it is time to bend double with your head between your knees and kiss your......

The exact opposite of the alarm overload often suffered by commercial pilots where maunfacturers choose to add ever increasing technological alarms

 it does at the sites I have visisted, and whilst it is disconcerting at first you do get used to it and the 2sudden silence" does work in alerting you to a problem. Tgheses are generally quite workplaces so you can hear the blip................Blip.............blip

However, I agree with earlier posters, the world is getting noiser with beeps, chimes and pings and various alerts, I am  getting a bit deaf and find it increasingly hard to seperate the noises, particularly the one that discretely tells me the fuel is low.

Maybe this is more a symptom of people trying to do to much in too little time and rather than admit that they cannot cope seeking to shift some of the responsibility?

achrn  
#34 Posted : 09 September 2019 11:46:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: hilary Go to Quoted Post

You cannot expect a car manufacturer to have an alarm just in case you forget you've put a baby in the car seat.  Perhaps cot manufacturers can have an alarm just in case you leave the house, or shopping trolleys can have an alarm to ensure you unpack baby and the shopping at the same time.  At what point do we take responsibility for our own actions?

But we (society) apparently do expect cars to have an alarm to warn of approaching speed cameras, and low tyre pressures, and that it was frosty last night.  Apparently (from other postings) manufacturers think we expect cars to warn we've left a mobile phone in it, but not that we've left a child!  Really?  What sense of priorities does that reveal? 

I disagree that we "cannot" expect a car manufacturer to have a reminder alarm for child in car.  Currently we do not (in general), but that’s not a reason to say we “cannot”.

The rest of the paragraph is a logical fallacy.  The fact that you can think of other ridiculous things doesn't necessarily make this thing ridiculous.

And finally, you're still insisting that the existence of a warning alarm necessarily implies abdication of responsibility.  It does not.

Originally Posted by: hilary Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post

Are all warning systems an abdication of responsibility?  Will you be removing beacons and sounders from all your mobile plant?  Are they an abdication of responsibility also?

Beacons and sounders are there to warn other people in the area, not the operator of the plant.  The operator of the plant doesn't need beacons and sounders because, presumably, he knows he is there.

Indeed.  But by your argument, those other people are abdicating their responsibility to look out for moving plant.  Ban beacons and sounders!

Originally Posted by: MrBrightside Go to Quoted Post

I’m a great fan of using technology to our advantage, however what I’m not great fan of is a reliance on technology to tell us when something is wrong.

Again a rehash of the argument that if you put in a warning alarm it's an abdication of responsibility.  The existence of an alarm does not imply a reliance on the alarm system.  My car has an icy road alarm - I don't rely on it and drive like a muppet unless it tells me it might be icy.  It has warning alarms for seatbelts, and doors open and low fluids and so on and so on.  I don't rely on them - I shut the doors and check the fluids and so on, but I consider the alarms and warnings useful none the less.

Originally Posted by: MrBrightside Go to Quoted Post

Any system will have the option to turn it off for the reason above.

The fact that this won't completely eliminate the problem is not a valid reason to do nothing.

Originally Posted by: MrBrightside Go to Quoted Post

Whose fault is that?

Again a fixation on the (unwarranted, in my opinion) assumption that people are trying to avoid blame.  It would be the parents fault, just as it is now.  The proposal is trying to avoid needing to allocate blame.  The proposal is about keeping a child alive, not shifting blame for their death.

Originally Posted by: MrBrightside Go to Quoted Post

A parent could leave their child behind in a shopping centre or park, do we then fit all children with a proximity alarm.

See above.  The fact that you can think of other ridiculous things doesn't make this thing ridiculous.

Edited by user 09 September 2019 11:47:22(UTC)  | Reason: typo

thanks 2 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 09/09/2019(UTC), andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC)
mihai_qa  
#35 Posted : 09 September 2019 12:17:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

There's such a thing as too many alarms, whereas they will lead to people either completely ignoring them or actively trying to reduce them: seatbelts plugged in, bypass seat sensors (ebay), cutting the wire, etc.

I guess you could argue that it's better safe than sorry, but overuse might lead to distracted driving (we have that already).

It's funny how everyone agrees on the need to limit false alarms with regards to fire safety but we're perfectly ok to discuss about adding more whilst driving, an activity during which most people are in an automatic process (if they're not learners).

There are so many chimes and beeps all around us that people have become accustomed to it and disregard them as nuisance noise. To me it seems like a lawyer's advice in trying to get rid of potential lawsuits.

I'm pretty sure there could be a more practicable solution that could potentially save a life. Relying on an alarm is nothing short of telling someone "i told you to be careful" as opposed to the "you should've been more careful" advice after the event was consumed. 

It's the automatic process that needs to be tackled, and,  after the initial excitment and awarness of the new feature/gadget (controlled process), it will kick in again, likely keeping those statistics unchanged. 

Seatbelts chimes have done little to nothing in changing the percentage of people flying through the windshield in my home country and the majority keep bypassing it.

achrn  
#36 Posted : 09 September 2019 12:50:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

It's funny how everyone agrees on the need to limit false alarms with regards to fire safety but we're perfectly ok to discuss about adding more whilst driving, an activity during which most people are in an automatic process (if they're not learners).

That's a straw man.  The alarm being discussed will not sound while driving.

mihai_qa  
#37 Posted : 09 September 2019 13:03:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

I'm aware of that, I was referring to the cumulus, regardless if the car is in motion or stationary. The effect on the consciousness level will be the same nontheless.

I've left my headlights on while parked a number of times, despite of the alert chime. I'm still not sure if I had the radio on at the time to block the sound or I was just absent minded.

andybz  
#38 Posted : 09 September 2019 13:20:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andybz

Well engineered alarm systems can make a very significant contribution to safety. The Process industry is currently working very hard on improvement because it recognises that it has mismanaged alarms for quite a while, particularly since the introduction digital control systems. I am sure other industries should follow this example (e.g. medical).

For a succinct summary of alarm management this information sheet from HSE is very useful http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/chis6.pdf

For a more complete discussion you should invest in a copy of EEMUA 191 https://www.eemua.org/Pr...MUA-Publication-191.aspx

Thanks to achrn,  fairlieg and CptBeaky for your contributions to this discussion. I was starting to wonder.

Roundtuit  
#39 Posted : 09 September 2019 13:59:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post
Considering it could be as simple as the car issuing a warning and refusing to lock if any of the seatbelts are engaged,

Great, except some designs of car seat are of the semi-permanent nature and never removed from the vehicle so the seat belt (or Iso-lok system) remains engaged for however long you have the vehicle and the seat needs to be available regardless of the presence of the child.

mihai_qa  
#40 Posted : 09 September 2019 14:01:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

andy that's a bit of a leap to bring in process industries. Here we're talking about Joe public not oil rigs, regular drills and repetitive training.

Alarms are not responded to the same way and it will just add to the 15-20 chimes available in most modern cars.

Clearly this is an issue, but if we read the article, the father that lost his adopted child also states that alarms won't do much.

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