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Roundtuit  
#41 Posted : 09 September 2019 14:17:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

 Apparently (from other postings) manufacturers think we expect cars to warn we've left a mobile phone in it, but not that we've left a child!  Really?  What sense of priorities does that reveal?

Absolutely no priorities it is merely an extension to the existing technology where the car head unit blue tooth hands free function pairs to the phone, the warning is then a script for when a phone has been attached during the current driving cycle.

Most drivers will carry a mobile phone, not all drivers have children in the vehicle.

stevedm  
#42 Posted : 10 September 2019 06:36:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

I am really quiet surprised (or am I?) as to the rhetoric of this post....there has been a tragedy here and a young child died...yet people are being lambasted for trying to prevent that from happening again...that is just poor guys....

We deal with behaviours and attitudes daily, luckily some of you don't deal with tragedy like this sometimes it feels like daily…and you maybe don’t deal with different cultures and attitudes…human behaviour can be strange…I remember on of one my first roles which was investigating why parents left their children in the house fire while they escaped...

I expected better understanding from you all on differences in human behaviour and to have knowledge and understanding of its failings…how else are we going to prevent things like this happening…in the little worlds we can influence.

So for me I applaud them for trying something that could just prevent one death…

thanks 2 users thanked stevedm for this useful post.
andybz on 10/09/2019(UTC), ttxela on 10/09/2019(UTC)
mihai_qa  
#43 Posted : 10 September 2019 07:50:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

I can only speak for myself, but I wasn't discrediting the efforts or the need for it. I wasn't even trying to place blame on the parents.

My concern was with regards to the effectivness of such a feature and its long term effects. I hope you would agree this must be discussed.

You mentioned human behavior...how long until the numbers increase with this added feature? It will create that same false sense of "safety" that PPE does.

The father that lost its child does mention in the article that this is nowehere near sufficient and I tend to agree.

I feel it's one more of those "lawyered-in" features that a marketing department will love as it creates discussion, momentum and sales.

Seeing how most vehicles have an on-board display (regardless of your opinion on it) why not use that and have it linked to a rear-seat facing camera pointed towards the child? It should overrride all other displays when in P and/or when the handbrake is on.

In this visual world with screens all around us, I feel this might be a more suitable solution. It can be added to the dome light and it's more likely to have an impact and switch us from the automated process of thinking.

thanks 3 users thanked mihai_qa for this useful post.
hilary on 10/09/2019(UTC), ttxela on 10/09/2019(UTC), Natasha.Graham on 18/09/2019(UTC)
fairlieg  
#44 Posted : 10 September 2019 07:58:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

I can only speak for myself, but I wasn't discrediting the efforts or the need for it. I wasn't even trying to place blame on the parents.

My concern was with regards to the effectivness of such a feature and its long term effects. I hope you would agree this must be discussed.

You mentioned human behavior...how long until the numbers increase with this added feature? It will create that same false sense of "safety" that PPE does.

The father that lost its child does mention in the article that this is nowehere near sufficient and I tend to agree.

I feel it's one more of those "lawyered-in" features that a marketing department will love as it creates discussion, momentum and sales.

Seeing how most vehicles have an on-board display (regardless of your opinion on it) why not use that and have it linked to a rear-seat facing camera pointed towards the child? It should overrride all other displays when in P and/or when the handbrake is on.

In this visual world with screens all around us, I feel this might be a more suitable solution. It can be added to the dome light and it's more likely to have an impact and switch us from the automated process of thinking.

I think Steve was more concerned about the overwhelming need to blame and shame on the forum thather than to understand the problem and potential solution(s).

thanks 1 user thanked fairlieg for this useful post.
stevedm on 10/09/2019(UTC)
stevedm  
#45 Posted : 10 September 2019 08:03:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

You got it....finally some light! :)

mihai_qa  
#46 Posted : 10 September 2019 08:37:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

Originally Posted by: fairlieg Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

I think Steve was more concerned about the overwhelming need to blame and shame on the forum thather than to understand the problem and potential solution(s).

I'm not entirely sure how that's any different than blaming and shaming. None of the approaches help, but rather help divide and point fingers.

And yet, when someone proposes to discuss on topic and the faults or benefits of such an addition, it's disregarded. 

I keep having these conversations with the Dekker's and Gantt's of the world when it comes to safety bashing and "anti-zero". What's the point of it? Clearly there's an issue, but we're too busy focusing on what the other has done wrong rather than talk practical solutions.

I've had my Gandhi moment here, please don't judge me harshly.

fairlieg  
#47 Posted : 10 September 2019 09:08:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fairlieg Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

I think Steve was more concerned about the overwhelming need to blame and shame on the forum thather than to understand the problem and potential solution(s).

I'm not entirely sure how that's any different than blaming and shaming. None of the approaches help, but rather help divide and point fingers.

And yet, when someone proposes to discuss on topic and the faults or benefits of such an addition, it's disregarded. 

I keep having these conversations with the Dekker's and Gantt's of the world when it comes to safety bashing and "anti-zero". What's the point of it? Clearly there's an issue, but we're too busy focusing on what the other has done wrong rather than talk practical solutions.

I've had my Gandhi moment here, please don't judge me harshly.

The first responses on this thread were to call the guy who killed his son an idiot for his "rank stupidity" and blame him for the accident and how one could never make such a mistake... the point is doing that does nothing to stop it from happening again.  There was also comment that we shlould not need to discuss solutions because this is an occupational safety forum and the child was under 18 (even though some of us are product safety, human factors engineers).

None of these comments are from you BTW the point is they don't add anything of value.  Debating solutions is valuable, trying to understand the context and the problem is valuable (all of which you have done, so maybe you are a Dekker(ite) after all)

My job would be easier if I could fire everyone who made a mistake in my workplace...... there just wouldn't be many people left (including me)

thanks 2 users thanked fairlieg for this useful post.
mihai_qa on 10/09/2019(UTC), chris42 on 10/09/2019(UTC)
stevedm  
#48 Posted : 10 September 2019 11:45:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

MH think you need to lay down in a darkened room for a minute or two...I think if you actualy read what I am saying, we are saying pretty much the same thing...except I hold no interest in the spoutings of Dekker and Gantt...

the OP was done with no undertanding of the route cause and culture of the person involved...you have all gone on a rant about apps and nanny states...when you need to be looking at behaviour and culture..when I first got responsibility for South Africa and then the global Human factors program...I had to understand why things like 8,000 pedestrian deaths where happening every year...why because of the changes that happened around that time meant that now the people felt 'empowered' to walk anywhere they liked...even with a car bearing down on you at 120km/hr....so you see it isn't as simple as saying 'what an idiot he left the child in the car'...people do it all the time...understand people and you will get a better chance of changing yourself and thier attitudes...  now I'm going to lay down in a darkened room! :)

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mihai_qa on 10/09/2019(UTC), ttxela on 10/09/2019(UTC)
mihai_qa  
#49 Posted : 10 September 2019 12:27:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

SA sounds awfully familiar to what's going on back home...it's just, we've been at it for the past 30 years without showing any signs of improvement.

"Liberation" comes at a cost, and that awakening, at least in our case, meant everything is free for all. Distrust of authority, desire to flaunt rules and a general entitlement combined with victimhood have all lead to us having horrible statistics.

This is one of the points I've tried to make with the Dekkers, Gantts and their band of cheerleaders. The last thing "developing nations" (i'm being nice here) need is to "embrace risk"(Dekker's been spouting this nonsense for some time now). They're already embracing risk quite succesfully, thanks. 

Some places need enforcement, others empowerment and others a mix of both. Some, just need everyone to stay away and not interfere. 

Darwin awards, natural selection, all these snide remarks help no one, I agree with you. I will give people the benefit of the doubt in saying that this profession takes its toll and gets otherwise morally sound people to look through a skewed glass. I know I have and it has made me question myself and my abilities. 

I'll go way off-topic, but is there a study anywhere on the psychological effects of people engaged in this profession? I've searched previously but haven't found anything.

achrn  
#50 Posted : 10 September 2019 12:59:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

Clearly this is an issue, but if we read the article, the father that lost his adopted child also states that alarms won't do much.

I don't find that in the article.  He says that the system being proposed by the car manufacturers is not very effective, I don't see him saying that alarms won't do much.

mihai_qa  
#51 Posted : 10 September 2019 13:04:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

Extract:

"This system doesn't detect anything," said Mr Harrison. "You could have a watermelon on the back seat. It doesn't detect that there is a living being there."

Mr Harrison, of Purcellville, Virginia, said the new system would not have made a difference in his case.

That's because it sounds an alert when the back door has been opened ahead of a journey. In his case, he stopped at a dry cleaners on the way to work that day in July 2008, so the system would have been disabled when he got out of the car briefly.

"If you make a stop on the way, the system is useless," he said. "Then you get distracted, and you go to work. Which is what happened."

"All they're doing is putting off legislation that would make them actually do something," he said. "There's no oversight and there are no consequences. It's just gobbledygook.

"They're trying to sell cars, not save lives."

ttxela  
#52 Posted : 10 September 2019 15:35:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: hilary Go to Quoted Post
I'm quite sure that a lot of us "safety professionals" are also parents (believe it or not we do have lives which are separate from our chosen professions) and on this occasion we responded as parents because, as someone rightly pointed out, health and safety law does not apply to children and does not apply outside the working environment, so why would we respond as safety professionals?

Er, wait, what? Children may not have to comply to H&S law but I'm reasonably sure we are required to consider damage to them. Admittedly this is, if anything, more a matter of product safety rather than occupational health and safety but it is a safety issue nonetheless (even if you don't judge it one worth addressing) surely?

Roundtuit  
#53 Posted : 10 September 2019 19:11:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

In UK law consideration would be as potential unwanted intruders to site or as young persons in the work place.

It clearly states Institution of Occupational Safety and Health at the bottom of this web page.

Product safety is the specialism of others within the UK - Chartered Institute of Trading Standards and the Office of Public and Product Safety to name but two.

Certainly weren't any modules on product safety in the NEBOSH examinations I have sat.

thanks 1 user thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
SJP on 18/09/2019(UTC)
mihai_qa  
#54 Posted : 11 September 2019 06:41:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

Just because Nebosh hadn't even mentioned that in their syllabus, doesn't necessarily mean we should be oblivious to it, does it? I've done my fair share of Nebosh courses and while there's good info in them, they do encourage (unwillingly perhaps) rote learning and scripture referencing (sometimes that's painfully obvious). Hopefully their new revised GC will help tackle that.

The opening post was in the OHS section and it did get the ball rolling to conjecture and somewhat judgemental views. I blame this on social media (particularly LinkedIn) and the hit and run posts where most look at a video from a third world country (The East mainly) and start dusting off their CMIOSH and CSP badges ready to invoke the Darwin Award.

For someone that was so readily available to scold another for using the thank you button, you seem to have no issue in engaging in social media practices yourself. Just thought I'd leave that out there.

Have a great day,

Mihai

hilary  
#55 Posted : 11 September 2019 07:44:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I make no apologies for my views.  I had two children, I was sleep deprived, working full time with two kids under 3 but I never forgot when I had them with me and I never left them in the car.  I managed to remember to drop them off with my mother in law every morning, pick them up from nursery at lunchtime and collect them from my mother in law every evening and I will admit here and now that I was not Supermum, I just did my best and was very cognizant of my responsibilities to these small people that I brought into the world.

To forget you have a child in the car is not just a bit of forgetfulness - like leaving your sandwiches on the side at home, it's downright stupid, irresponsible and criminal.  Yes, I feel sorry for the parent but I feel a lot sorrier for the child who is now dead because of this cavalier attitude.  It is a tragic accident but it could easily have been avoided, not by adding cameras, beeps, flashing lights and other technology which it is easy to ignore, but by just checking the car when you leave it.  How difficult is that? 

If that's harsh then I'm sorry but in my opinion he failed in his duty and no amount of soft soaping is going to change that fact.  You have a child - you look after that child - end of.

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webstar on 11/09/2019(UTC), SJP on 18/09/2019(UTC)
Xavier123  
#56 Posted : 11 September 2019 11:05:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

Originally Posted by: hilary Go to Quoted Post

  How difficult is that? 

About 38 children a year in the USA difficult.

An answer is an earlier part of the thread.

https://humanfactors101.com/2017/05/21/fatal-distraction/

This is clearly a reality whether commentators think it should be or not. Thus there is a societal choice between attempting to mitigate and reduce those child deaths through some means or doing nothing. It seems unlikely that this rate of incident will decrease through the latter.

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mihai_qa on 11/09/2019(UTC), fairlieg on 11/09/2019(UTC)
fairlieg  
#57 Posted : 11 September 2019 11:58:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

Originally Posted by: Xavier123 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hilary Go to Quoted Post

  How difficult is that? 

About 38 children a year in the USA difficult.

An answer is an earlier part of the thread.

https://humanfactors101.com/2017/05/21/fatal-distraction/

This is clearly a reality whether commentators think it should be or not. Thus there is a societal choice between attempting to mitigate and reduce those child deaths through some means or doing nothing. It seems unlikely that this rate of incident will decrease through the latter.

Past performance is not a predictor of future success.

Put this blame argument into the workplace arena, there were 147 workplace fatalities and 92 members of the public killed due to work related activities in the UK 2018/2019 according to the HSE report.  I wonder how many of these put the responsibility for them at the feet of the people directly involved at the time they happened (147 Darwin Award Winners, really!!).  If we as a profession continue to use punishment and blame as a corrective action nothing will change, it’s not just a people problem, it’s more likely to be a systems problem. 

achrn  
#58 Posted : 11 September 2019 12:56:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

Clearly this is an issue, but if we read the article, the father that lost his adopted child also states that alarms won't do much.

I don't find that in the article.  He says that the system being proposed by the car manufacturers is not very effective, I don't see him saying that alarms won't do much.

Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

Extract:

"This system doesn't detect anything," said Mr Harrison. "You could have a watermelon on the back seat. It doesn't detect that there is a living being there."

Mr Harrison, of Purcellville, Virginia, said the new system would not have made a difference in his case.

So you agree he does not say that alarms won't do much, he says that the system (quotr, "This system", emphasis added) being proposed by manufacturers won't do much.  He goes on to extol the system that does have an alarm - he wants cars to be fitted with alarms, but better alarms than teh systen the manufacturers want to adopt. 

He's not objecting to alarms, he's objecting to a particular system of alarms.

achrn  
#59 Posted : 11 September 2019 13:01:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: hilary Go to Quoted Post

If that's harsh then I'm sorry but in my opinion he failed in his duty and no amount of soft soaping is going to change that fact.  You have a child - you look after that child - end of.

Still this insistence that the proponents are looking for someone to blame.  I don't see this.  Mr Harrison in particular is clearly not looking for someone to blame - he knows he is to blame: "I desperately pray that reading about this will make just one person save their child's life. That's all I would ever need. Don't do to your family what I did to mine," (emphasis added).

He's not 'soft-soaping', he's not claiming he didn't fail, he's not trying to blame anyone else.  He's (apparently) trying to prevent other deaths.

It must be nice to have never made a mistake that could have had terrible consequences.

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mihai_qa on 11/09/2019(UTC)
mihai_qa  
#60 Posted : 11 September 2019 13:04:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

Clearly this is an issue, but if we read the article, the father that lost his adopted child also states that alarms won't do much.

I don't find that in the article.  He says that the system being proposed by the car manufacturers is not very effective, I don't see him saying that alarms won't do much.

Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

Extract:

"This system doesn't detect anything," said Mr Harrison. "You could have a watermelon on the back seat. It doesn't detect that there is a living being there."

Mr Harrison, of Purcellville, Virginia, said the new system would not have made a difference in his case.

So you agree he does not say that alarms won't do much, he says that the system (quotr, "This system", emphasis added) being proposed by manufacturers won't do much.  He goes on to extol the system that does have an alarm - he wants cars to be fitted with alarms, but better alarms than teh systen the manufacturers want to adopt. 

He's not objecting to alarms, he's objecting to a particular system of alarms.

I've had another look at the posts in this thread, including my own and yours. Wasn't the debate about the proposed alarm? I even went further and said that just an alarm would likely not affect the occurence. I went on to propose an alternative means and went further in trying to explain some of the causes (Xavier123 posted a much clearer description of what I was going for).

That particular system of alarms is the point of discussion. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any proposal for a different type. Maybe I overlooked something.

achrn  
#61 Posted : 13 September 2019 12:33:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: mihai_qa Go to Quoted Post

That particular system of alarms is the point of discussion. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any proposal for a different type. Maybe I overlooked something.

Mr Harrison wants an alarm that is triggered by movement in the seat, not just by whether the rear doors have been opened. It seems you have possibly overlooked the statement "Mr Harrison and other campaigners want car manufacturers to detect motion in the back seat"

Mr Harrison wants an alarm system and the statement "the father that lost his adopted child also states that alarms won't do much" is incorrect.  The father that 'lost' his adopted child did not state that alarms won't do much, he stated that the system proposed by the manufacturers wouldn't have helped him.  That father wants alarms, but better alarms.

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mihai_qa on 14/09/2019(UTC)
jwk  
#62 Posted : 16 September 2019 13:26:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

411,000,000,000 car journeys in the USA per year, I don't know how many involve children but let's say it's 10%, so that would give us 40,000,000,000. On 40 occasions per year children die because they get left in a hot car. That's about one-hundred millionth of one percent of car journeys. So yes, we really should protect life wherever possible, and if fitting an alarm and warnings will help, why not do it, but there are two interesting questions arising from this.

Why go to so much effort to control such a vanishingly small risk? And, why don't we use more technological solutions to stop drivers driving while drunk or drugged; or breaking the speed limit; or going through red lights; or just driving badly in general?

After all, 1600 children die from other causes in the roads each year in the USA, that's 40x more than die in hot cars. Where's the risk calculation here?

John

Edited by user 16 September 2019 13:27:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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A Kurdziel on 16/09/2019(UTC), mihai_qa on 17/09/2019(UTC), hilary on 17/09/2019(UTC), SJP on 18/09/2019(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#63 Posted : 16 September 2019 15:28:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I must remind people that is the USA we are talking about and the main driver is fear of being sued. So what lawyers do is they create a big publicity thing about an issue such as children dying in over-heated cars and then they demand compensation from manufacturers on the grounds there is a technology available that could maybe (perhaps) save lives.  So they start up a an “issue” and then start a class action against the car sector who then agree to a payoff, because they know that the case will be heard in court with an easily swayed  jury (which is what they use in civil cases)

Strangely enough they do not use this system for workplace injuries, which might be one of the reasons that the US has such a bad record for occupational health and safety and more recently they have introduce a federal law that prevents gun makers being sued for damages for injuries etc caused by accidents even though it would be relatively simple to design guns that are more difficult to misuse. Please note that 1300 children die and 5790 are treated for gunshot wounds, in the US, each year. Fatal shooting are the third biggest cause of deaths in young people.

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Roundtuit  
#64 Posted : 16 September 2019 19:15:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Seat belts have been fitted to cars since the late 1960's whilst airbags were introduced because drivers were not wearing them (seat belt use not being legislated until the 1980's).

Interestingly the 101 cites the presence of air bags as a factor as to why children are in the back of the car.

Would these have been necessary had earlier technology been adopted in a timely manner?

Dave5705  
#65 Posted : 17 September 2019 07:41:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

There may have been a hint of sarcasm in Roundtuit’s OP, but it was tongue in cheek, self-facing (I think), and I wholeheartedly agree. How have we come to this, that we need an alarm to remind us we have children in the car?

This poor bloke must be absolutely beside himself with grief, and with self-condemnation which (IMHO) is completely unwarranted. He is not stupid. He is fallible. We all are. On this occasion, his fallibility, compounded by our modern societal need for more (because for some reason normally rational people are driven to work harder and harder to acquire more and better stuff instead of valuing the truths of life like time and enjoyment) has ended in tragedy. Take on too much and something will suffer, the law of nature. But that is not his fault in isolation. There are Mr Harrisons all over the world every day, it is what we do, what we have been getting worse at for many years, and only recently has society and industry started to question those values. He’s not a bad parent, he’s coping the best he can, making mistakes as we all do, and sadly sometimes those mistakes cost us dearly. I feel for him. Bring me anyone who has not forgotten something critical at some point and all you have brought is someone who has yet to do so.

One or two on here have lambasted others for not taking the idea of yet another alarm seriously. If the safety industry has a fault here, it is that we do not question the provision of each alarm seriously enough, and end up with so many that they become background noise. They become the norm, and once something becomes the norm then it goes unnoticed. The whole thing needs looking at again and I for one welcome that.

But to suggest that we ‘lot of safety professionals’ have no empathy for this man’s plight or are not taking the issue seriously and have no desire to solve it, is unfair, goes off-topic, and frankly is a little insulting and I won’t have it. If the responses are not what you were expecting, maybe you were expecting too much as the OP did not ask for them. (If you wish to raise the issue in the form of a question I’m sure you will get many well-considered and relevant replies). The issue, though tragic, has a fairly low occurrence rate compared to many issues we face as a worldwide society The pure lottery of life (at the moment) is that, if you happen to be the child of a middle-class American the dangers you face are different than those faced by another child whose only crime is that they happen to be born to a family in a war-torn or famine-stricken country. The death toll due to hot Buicks is considerably less than that of starvation of babies worldwide. There are alarms on the news every day about starving babies and are we listening? I think we need to fix that first. Or gun-related deaths at nearly 40,000 per year but barely makes the news.

One tragic death is no more or less important than another, but massive death tolls should be addressed first, that’s first principles. Maybe that’s why we didn’t get all hot under the collar?

Edited by user 17 September 2019 07:43:48(UTC)  | Reason: formatting

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Roundtuit on 17/09/2019(UTC), hilary on 17/09/2019(UTC), SJP on 17/09/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 17/09/2019(UTC), mihai_qa on 17/09/2019(UTC), Natasha.Graham on 18/09/2019(UTC)
stevedm  
#66 Posted : 18 September 2019 07:06:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Originally Posted by: Dave5705 Go to Quoted Post
One tragic death is no more or less important than another, but massive death tolls should be addressed first, that’s first principles. Maybe that’s why we didn’t get all hot under the collar?

Until it is your child...

First since this was clearly directed at me but not said...I do have the conviction to reply...if you actually read the post instead of going off on some rant about war torn countries that you probably have no first hand experience of you may begin to understand...I have been to the war torn countries, I have dealt directly with this human tragedy...you 'we' the OP, doesn't seem to get that you are dealing with different cultures and different levels of understanding..that was my point...yes human make mistakes..doh..

The age today is that people do rely on thier devices more than some of us do..so why not use that to prevent loss of life ...but instead we say 'oh how stupid'. 'oh no not another app'..had we use the post to discuss the cultural differences even between the UK and US in terms of how they deal with workplace deaths or human factors methods that could be used to prevent such death...by the way they had a human factors engineer in the development cycle for this app...instead we do a post more related to the Daily Mail...your reply and this post are just some of the reasons why I cancelled my membership...

Does ot not also seem strange to you that some of the people who have thanked you for the post are also the poeple who thanked me?...

I want an integillent debate here not one that devolves into my death count is bigger than yours.... 

mihai_qa  
#67 Posted : 18 September 2019 08:31:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mihai_qa

Originally Posted by: stevedm Go to Quoted Post

Does ot not also seem strange to you that some of the people who have thanked you for the post are also the poeple who thanked me?...

Can only speak for myself :) but I use that button to show my appreciation to posts that somewhat improve/add value to the debate. I felt that the both of you have done so, hence my thanks for it.

However, this does not imply my full adherence to those ideas. Back on topic, and on to achrn's point, motion detection alarms would be flawed or less than desirable. Children spend most of their time asleep, securely fastened in that seat. My niece is like a rock when asleep and she's not pathological, she's just 3 years old. 

CptBeaky  
#68 Posted : 18 September 2019 08:44:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CptBeaky

To move this topic away from the ethical/moral issues and onto solutions. My previous solution was shot down (and rightly so) so how about this.

A weight sensor for the chair. Combined with an app on a phone. Should the car stop moving for more than 5 minutes (can be changed on the app) whilst the weight sensor is activated it messages/bluetooths the person's phone.

This solution would be down to chair manufacturers, not the car manufacturers, and therefore have no price impact on those not using it. It would not add to alarms/beeps as it is a targetted message of  "Do you have a child in the back seat?" only to those that subscribe to the app.

Anyway, I am off now to go on Dragon's Den!

stevedm  
#69 Posted : 18 September 2019 08:53:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

existing telematics in the car will allow that although not available on low value models...don't forget human factors in the design...  ;)

hilary  
#70 Posted : 18 September 2019 08:53:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

CptBeaky

That is a very good suggestion, probably the best we've had.  Doesn't distract while driving, not easy to shut off or ignore - have you got a patent for this?

Well done.

Roundtuit  
#71 Posted : 18 September 2019 09:07:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Solar (or kinetically) powered so it does not require batteries or plugging in to the cars electrical supply (a lot of  "accessory" sockets only operate on an ignition live basis so there would be no power after the driver leaves the vehicle).

CptBeaky  
#72 Posted : 18 September 2019 09:10:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: hilary Go to Quoted Post

CptBeaky

That is a very good suggestion, probably the best we've had.  Doesn't distract while driving, not easy to shut off or ignore - have you got a patent for this?

Well done.

Nope, although thinking about it you can simplify it even more. It doesn't need the weight sensor, just to know if the restraints on the chair are engaged or not. This would reduce battery use.

I would worry about compromising the safety restraints, but it may be possible to engineers a plug in to the restraint, meaning this could be backwards compatible.

hilary  
#73 Posted : 18 September 2019 09:27:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

You're on a roll now ....

achrn  
#74 Posted : 18 September 2019 11:05:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

A weight sensor for the chair. Combined with an app on a phone. Should the car stop moving for more than 5 minutes (can be changed on the app) whilst the weight sensor is activated it messages/bluetooths the person's phone.

The car seat would need its own mobile phone system transmitter (or a car that has its own mobile phone built in) - it's quite unlikely that the phone will still be in bluetooth range five minutes later.  So that requires a subscription to a telecoms provider too.

I think a message on a phone five minutes later is much more likely to be ignored than the car horn going off when you're ten paces away, which is the system Mr Harrison endorses.  I don't understand what's wrong with that - what problem with that arrangement is this proposal trying to solve?

CptBeaky  
#75 Posted : 18 September 2019 11:27:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

A weight sensor for the chair. Combined with an app on a phone. Should the car stop moving for more than 5 minutes (can be changed on the app) whilst the weight sensor is activated it messages/bluetooths the person's phone.

The car seat would need its own mobile phone system transmitter (or a car that has its own mobile phone built in) - it's quite unlikely that the phone will still be in bluetooth range five minutes later.  So that requires a subscription to a telecoms provider too.

I think a message on a phone five minutes later is much more likely to be ignored than the car horn going off when you're ten paces away, which is the system Mr Harrison endorses.  I don't understand what's wrong with that - what problem with that arrangement is this proposal trying to solve?

The phone would be bluetoothed to the sensor. It would only need to know if the restraints were connected. The phone itself could monitor if the car was travelling or not. As for the rest, you have a point. Let's simplify it even more then. If the restraint is connected and the phone loses the bluetooth connection the message is sent.

Basically we can all agree that the world doesn't need more alarms and beeps. What it needs are alarms that are more targeted. The issue with Mr.Harrisons idea is that it is likely to be switched off, or by-passed. Most people don't want an alarm for when they are filling up with petrol, or popping into a shop etc. whilst the child is asleep in the back. For a start it will wake that child up!

Roundtuit  
#76 Posted : 18 September 2019 11:30:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sensors on the rear doors are not much use in a two door - the back pain was a great reminder the little one had been lifted in to their car seat

hilary  
#77 Posted : 19 September 2019 09:14:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

32% of the children who died in hot cars got into the cars on their own ..... how did they do this?  Do cars in America not lock?  OK, I'm being facetious before you all shout me down, but it does smack of a lack of care.  12% of children were left in the car deliberately (not to die one hopes, but the parents did not forget), 2% are circumstances unknown (??) and then you get the "forgetful ones" who make up the rest.  So we're really only talking about a solution for 54% of the deaths.

There is not going to be a "solve all" answer.  Each suggestion has it's merits and it's pitfalls but no one has mentioned risk homeostatis which is probably the biggest pitfall of the lot.  At which point do you stop relying on yourself and start relying on technology to remind you that you have a child?  One needs to be sure that when one puts a control measure in place, one does not introduce a different and potentially bigger risk by doing so.

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