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#1 Posted : 16 September 2001 08:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Angela I am considering my options for developing my career and would welcome all suggestions. In the summer I was awarded a bachelor of science with first class honours in Safety, Health and Environmental Management from Nottingham Trent University. I studied this course part-time, sponsored by my employer for whom I have worked for 16 years, the last 7 years in the health physics and safety department of the nuclear industry. The first 9 years as an analytical chemist, doing wet chemistry techniques for radionuclides. I believe because it is the nuclear industry and because I am already in a management position that my current salary of £30K a year is probably in the region of what I could get if I looked to move. Although, if I am under selling myself here please feel free to tell me different. I considered one of my options was to stay where I am in work, very little chance of career development there though. However, in my own time I could try and develop some freelance writing skills or develop training packages. I definitely have the time on my hands again after four years studying. I would welcome suggestions of where to start. Any contacts I could make and also what is needed in the way of indemnity insurance. I have also recently got around to joining IOSH as a member. Please feel free to e-mail me or reply to the message board. Thanks Angela PS. sorry to knock people from the top of the list when I already have a job.
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#2 Posted : 02 October 2001 16:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bernard Angus Angela, I wish you luck. I too came from the nuclear industry (to local government - what a culture shock !) The trouble with moving into H & S as a starter is that the profession is becoming flooded with people having 'less than practitioner qualifications', like NEBOSH Certificates. Employers lap them up on salaries much lower than yours (or mine)and the whole ethos is undermining the professional practitioner, which is why many health and safety advisers/managers are slotted in so low in organisational structures.This should provoke some action!! B
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#3 Posted : 03 October 2001 21:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andrew Powell Bernard, I suppose I am the first fish to be hooked by your bait. But I simply cannot help it. My guess is that you intend to provoke in the hope of receiving so many replies that they will fill the spare time you have at work? What does everybody think though, are there enough "more than practitioner qualifications" out there? perhaps not or the serious injury and fatality numbers would not be rising disproportionately against other statistics and there would be no need for Revitalising… or indeed the other consultancy and advisory companies that charge well for their advice! There is another question, should we under qualified advisers/practitioners stay out of the safety business altogether until we have a degree?, thereby letting SME’s (precisely who cannot afford or perhaps justify the jumped up salaries of practitioners like yourself) ignore regulations by employing no adviser, although when you say local government, what do you mean? Local authority?? Is your salary that much greater, I was under the impression that LE’s paid less than average for you highflying well qualified practitioners? In summary then, what would you have us Gen cert/NVQ 3 advisers do Bernard? Help out, or do we sit back and let accident, injury and fatality rates increase?
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#4 Posted : 19 October 2001 12:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jeremy R. Manderson Angela, Yes I do understand your comments and perhaps your frustration. I am a Canadian HSEQ Specialist with focus in the Oil and Gas industry. The bulk of my experience is international, and has taken me around the world more times than I care to mention. I have also worked with the Well Control & Blowout industry (the Canadian team who led the Kuwaiti oil fires effort - after the gulf war) Comments made by Bernard are understood. I wonder as to the value of the NEBOSH cert., should I take them myself? Why should one pay so much for something that may not provide me with anything other than a UK recognized diploma, and so on. I respect the H&S industry and regard competency, training and accreditation as essential. However one tends to overlook experience. Perhaps the most critical element. Should we find a way to interface certification(s) and experience based training we would solve and/or weed out a lot of the concerns regarding poorly trained HSE personnel whom are in fact ill prepared for the environment that many of our industry sectors operate within. NEBOSH certification is fine, however it should be based upon serious industry background experience. In Canada if one can prove extensive experience, he or she can challenge certain HSE examination – however we also suffer the same fate with new industry personnel banging on doors with a fist full of certificates. In regard to the levels of compensation, well it’s an issue that is quite clear. Safety is not yet taken seriously by many of our colleagues, and executive management (we should include HR and recruiters in this). It is slowly being recognized as not only an integral component of industry, but also a service that requires top-level personnel and experience. Wages should be on par with other professionals, experience should be weighed equally to certification. And employers shall always get what they pay for. Why don’t we create an HSE NGO? and charge the living daylights out of selected industries Salaries for safety management should range from 50.000usd to 80.000usd and up. As a contract specialist one should average between 400usd to 850usd. (This is why I am still freelance). You don’t want to know what the may pay a well control specialist on an active blowout. HSE training for the purpose of developing competent personnel should be based on hands on experience. That said there is an industry within an industry in regards to safety professionals. This comes under the category of specialists. This is and has been my focus for many years. In fact I have just been requested for an HSEQ Audit in the mid east (UK Oil Company) The focus will be on general drilling operations, and in particular Emergency Response, H2S gas and communications. ? (Specialize) I would be interested to hear your thoughts on writing and in particular training, I may well have some feedback and suggestions. Will cc your e mail. Jeremy R. Manderson HSEQ/Canada
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#5 Posted : 22 October 2001 13:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Phil Roberts I am one of the so called " less than PAPER qualified safety practitioners" and resent the inference that we are undermining the fully PAPER qualified safety practitiones. I have 34 years experience in the high risk chemical/petrochemical industry including 9 years as a safety inspector and author of safe working pratices and permit to work systems. The in house training for a safety inspector equaled or exceeded the knowledge gained by studying for a NEBOSH diploma plus all the practicle knowleged gained from daily use of the safety sytems. Added to this experience I have been employed as a safety officer in the less arduous but still dangerouse newspaper industry for a further 3 years. If I had to rely on an experienced person or a newly graduated BSc./Diploma holder I know where my money would be. So befor you make any further disparraging remarks about Certificate holders please remember they may be more knowlegable thay you but cannot afford the exorbitant fees charged by training providors for futher academic advancement. Best regards Phil Roberts
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#6 Posted : 22 October 2001 14:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Nick Higginson It never ceases to amaze me the amount of arguments about which type of practitioner to employ i.e. experience or qualified. As we all know, the definition of competence includes knowledge, training, experience AND qualification, not one or the other. Granted, it would be foolhardy to employ someone who has just completed NEBOSH certificate and has no practical experience. However, I would venture to suggest that it would be just as foolhardy to employ someone with 20 years experience and no formal qualifications. The NEBOSH Certificate is an excellent qualification for supervisors, safety reps and practitioners in extremely low risk environments with few staff. Small companies often have no full time safety officer/advisor and add the job to someone elses duties. NEBOSH Cert. is ideal in these circumstances. And lets not hear about how expensive it is. I did it for £160 at local college. Once again, Competence = qualifications AND experience Kind regards, Nick
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#7 Posted : 22 October 2001 16:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By Phil Roberts Nick, you have missed the point of my argument, I do hold a Nebosh Certificate and I trained for 3 years in house to become a safety inspector in the Petrochemical Industry, a post I held for nine years, I doubt if any newly qualified Nebosh Diploma holder could match the knowledge gained in that time and the only reason I do not hold a Diploma is the exorbitant cost which I cannot afford. This precludes me from applying for many of the posts advertised in such places as the SHP etc. ps.. I also hold a Certificate in Education form Manchester Met. for which I was sponcered, so it is not the studying holding me back. Regards Phil Roberts
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#8 Posted : 22 October 2001 21:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Nick Higginson Phil, I wasn't being critical. From your qualifications and experience, it is evident that you are thoroughly competent. The absence of the Diploma isnt really an issue is it? I was trying to get across that someone with NEBOSH cert AND experience can be just as competent as anyone else. Kind regards, Nick
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#9 Posted : 22 October 2001 23:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Angela I fail to see how my original message has ended in this ongoing debate about qualifications versus experience. I keep getting notified in my mail box telling me I have a response and find that it is just the ongoing saga. I suggest that if people wish to discuss this further that they create their own thread and don't hijack my original posting to change the subkect into something quite different. To be honest I find it all a bit like kids on separate sides of the playground taking sides. What can I say coming from the Nuclear Industry I know all about SQEP Suitably Qualified Experienced Persons, it is neither about one nor the other, but a balance of both. Thankyou not to hijack my messages again going off at a tangent. Angela
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#10 Posted : 23 October 2001 10:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Allen I’m sure this is relevant to this thread but apologies to Angela if she thinks I’ve hi-jacked it again. My problem is neither with highly experienced people with no qualifications nor highly qualified people with no experience. The worst thing that happens to Safety Practitioners is that they often have people with neither promoted over their heads. The most senior positions in safety are often held by people who are on the general career ladder and have been transferred into safety to broaden their experience. It’s funny this doesn’t happen in legal or a medical department isn’t it? This trend is not confined to industry. The current HSC commissioners only appear to include two people who have come from a professional safety background. Are any of them IOSH members? Even two is an improvement. Historically the Chairman has never been a safety professional and the Director General of the HSE has usually been a career civil servant appointed over the Chief Inspectors. A few weeks ago in a large company (which for obvious reasons will be nameless) the Director of Safety and Environment (non safety professional – no qualifications) and the Safety Team Manager (non IOSH member) went into the office of one of their subordinates, a qualified and experienced practitioner and asked him to take his FIOSH certificate down from the wall. Apparently it embarrassed them. No comment should be required here. Employers who do not specify appropriate qualifications should be shamed into compliance. One often sees “an appropriate safety qualification preferred but not essential” in an advert for a safety practitioner but never “ an appropriate medical qualification preferred but not essential” in an advert for a doctor.
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