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Posted By john ridley
We currently have a problem with staff speeding in our car park. Basically we have provided road signs and markings to no avail and speed bumps, but sadly not in all traffic routes. Needles to say people have found a way around these and this has inevitably led to "Rat runs". To put in more ramps in all routes would cost upward of £90,000 and this is money which is quite frankly something we shouldn't have to spend.
I know we can use the stick and apply disciplinary procedures but to honest I would rather use the carrot and come up with something inspirational and get them to want to obey the rules.
This could be road signs that have a much better impact than the usual 20 mph thing or anything really.
Any ideas? I will let you know the results.
Cheers
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Posted By Geoff Burt
One client had security problems and put in CCTV. The expected security improvement worked fine but an additional unexpected result was a decrease in employee speeding through the service roads and car park.
Geoff
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
John,
We have had a similar problem at work and despite speed bumps etc road users are still speeding. With a new road and pedestrian project we will also be installing CCTV for security purposes. The offshoot of course is those who speed can now be caught 'red handed' as it were.
As Geoff suggests there does not seem any other viable alternative. Sad to have to say it, but it looks like the 'stick' wins.
Regards
Ray
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Posted By Nick Higginson
John,
I guess sometimes there is no carrot that will attract the donkey(s)?
Police have been trying for years to reduce road deaths for years by advertising campaigns showing us what we can do to children when we hit them at certain speeds etc.
As none of this has worked, we are subjected to speed cameras on every major route in the country. Interesting that recent research shows that it is working.
Regards,
Nick
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Posted By john ridley
Thanks for the reponse Geof. As a telecomms company our premises are crawling with CCTV already and this only leads to the punishmnet regime. I am looking to be proactive and encourage them to not to speed in the first place, not detect and punish them after they have committed the offence, but your response is most welcome.
Thanks
John
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Posted By Jim Walker
Eliminate the activity.
Make them walk!
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Posted By Dave Wilson
What about someone getting knocked over and seriously injured or even killed!
Have you as an employer done everything which is reasonably practicable to do?
I would suggest a campaign that is zero tolerance and employees will be barred from bring cars on site if they are caught and give them a deadline as to when this will be applied.
Then ENFORCE IT!!!
Only an opinion its is recognised that this happens the results of an incident could be catastrophic so the control measures have to control.
Forget the carrot as no one likes them obviously just use the stick.
Would this be happening if new corporate killing was on the statute.
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Posted By Geoff Burt
John
I know where you are coming from but if there was a successful way of doing it we wouldn't have nearly 10 fatalities a day on our roads.
I'd be interested in hearing if you come up with anything.
Geoff
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Agree Geoff, however this is not the public highway it is a work premises and we have the technology and management to overcome,
Like a said what happens if someone gets killed on your site?? Who will investigate this preventable death!
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Posted By lawrence baldwin
John
You say you have a speeding problem but you haven't quantified the problem. How fast are the cars actually travelling over and above the prescribed limit, or is it a perceived excessive speed or discourtious nature to pedestrians on the blinkered route home.
There are environmental organisations that can monitor traffic density and speed at specific locations over periods of time, if you have not done that already, to get an actual idea of the problem. (quantified data is easier to deal with sometimes than perceived data)
If the problem is pedestrians going to and from the vehicles, is it practical to identify a central pedestrian route through the centre or perimeter, into and out of the car park, clearly identified similar to that of zebra crossings that has priority over vehicles.
Traffic calming is not necessarily the panacea to controlling vehicles, neither I believe is the carrot and stick as the problem is here enforcement, after metering out whatever punishment, will that improve the drivers ability. My advice would be to quantify the problem, then look to separate pedestrians from vehicles within your design restrictions backed up by good and plentiful signage (albeit palliative) and high visibility Road Safety campaign by the local boys in blue. Involve your safety reps as well.
Lawrence
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Posted By George Wedgwood
Best to try and improve the culture but this is usually a long term solution, involving active (mostly office based safety committees or forums to debate such issues) involvement of employees themselves as volunteers. Additional control measures that have been successful have included speed signs that are 'odd' - i.e. a very successful one was 19 (mph) and another was 4 (mph), both of which made the brain think about what they meant and effectively slowed drivers down. Of course an effective back-up was a radar gun supported by a Site policy that drivers would be banned from site if caught speeding!
I remember the car park risks discussed in a previous job, where the same things were happening at HQ and it was largely solved by cooperation with employees along with juditious use of ramps, barriers, speed signs and the presence of a security man at peak times reinforced by the security cameras. All of these measures were discussed in open forum and agreed by those reps present, with regular reinforcement by occasional web messages, notices and business unit initiatives and near miss reporting. That was singularly the most important thing we did. It was open to all on the Intranet and provided instant response with a copy to the appropriate manager 'owning' the risk area.
Of course all of this was backed by a safety cultural improvement plan supported by the CEO!
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Posted By Malcolm Hogarth
It sounds as though you have a pretty big site to cover. Just a few thoughts to throw into the pot:
I agree agree with the idea of involving safety reps but there is also the issue of the safety culture to consider.
Who are the culprits? Do they include people who should know better?
Suggest reinforce the message at employees induction, safety committee meetings, department meetings etc. Involve senior management, even Directors.
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Posted By Ian Mycroft
John
We tend to use the phrase "inappropriate speed" as "speeding" often sends out the wrong message (in some circumstances 10mph is inappropriate).
We have also tried the carrot approach and unfortunately, it doesn't work. The only way is to make it not worthwhile for people to drive at inappropriate speed so as you have tried the speed humps and the signs and you have identified further traffic calming measures as too expensive, disiplining people who excede the limit that you set on your site is the only remaining answer. you probably wont have to do many before the message gets through.
Alternatively close the car park altogether and work out a Travel Option Plan that involves all staff using public transport to get to work. that way the environment wins too.
Ian
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Posted By john ridley
10 MPH limit is the limit on site but some drivers drive upwards of 40 mph. We recommended an original layout design for the car park but like normal we were ignored. This has led to the situation we are now in. Yes I know that they should put it right, but money is extermely tight just now and to ameliorate this will cost £90,000. Money quite frankly, we don't have.
The density of traffie is not the concern more of an attitude/culture issue. As a young telecomms company we operate with people who are very "can do" and all rules only exist to be challenged. To give an idea I dealt with a close colleague who passsed a red traffic light onto the site, When politely asked why she had done this she said "because there is no reason to stop" meaning she couldn't see any reason. She wasn't being Bolshy, it's truly what she believed.
Pedestrians going to and from the vehicles, is maybe something we could look at as these pass over the Rat Runs that have been created.
Totally agree with the enforcement issue and we will look at introducing car pass bans on a "three strikes and your out" basis, but I would still have liked to have come up with a "carrot". At least it would help these see better in the dark.
Thanks
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Carrots can be difficult to find in this area unless you are able to persuade the site management team to put some money up front. You could then organise a monthly draw with all offenders eliminated. Sometimes even a weeks meals in the staff restaurant can be attractive!!
As touched on by others the root of the problem is that all drivers select what they feel is an appropriate speed no matter what the limit is. I have campaigned concerning an A class road through a village - even speed, sorry safety, cameras do not prevent it.
Interestingly the more uncertain a driver is concerning the road the slower will be the driving speed. This has had research in Holland, I think it was, where even traffic lights were removed and all signals of segregation between driver and pedestrian were removed. The result was lower speed and fewer accidents. The HSE push is however for pedestrian segregation so I can't see an experiment being allowed. One thing can be done and that is to make all roads pedestrian priority, this will increase uncertainty, anyone ignoring everything though is still going to be subject to discipline. If fleet cars are involved you could remove permission to drive and then see the message sink home.
George is also right as peer pressure is probably the most successful stick
Bob
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Posted By Dave Wilson
John,
Have you thought about naming and shaming the culprits and embarrass them into slowing down, a league table of wrong doers etc.
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Posted By Merv Newman
John,
I have just read over the replies to your posting "bad safety culture". They were 100% for more and more and more repression. Just the title of your posting leads to looking at the many proven ways of improving safety culture, and they do not include repression.
Take a look at behavioural safety and the ways of improving the frequence of good, safe behaviours.
Without going into great detail, the basic steps are as follows :
1. Define "good behaviours", preferably with the help of the people involved - try a "man in the car park" questionnaire.
2. Measure the baseline - what is the frequence of good/safe bahaviour in your car park ?
3. Set an objective - preferably with the help of the "man in the car park"
4. Define rewards - "if the level rises to "baseline + X % we'll give you a windscreen scraper. If the level goes above X% for three months, we'll give you an even better windscreen scraper"
5. observe and measure frequently the percentage of good/safe behaviour
6. Provide feedback - "this week we were at Y% compared to our objective of x% "
7. encourage and recognise good/safe behaviour
8. Give the rewards when they are gained.
John, this is very brief and summary, but this kind of program - defining and ensuring rewards for GOOD behaviours, WORKS. I don't think it has ever been applied in your circumstances, but why not give it a try.
Send me an e-mail if you have any questions
regards
Merv Newman
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Merv et al,
I read your 'behavouril safety' ideas with disbelief, surely you can't be serious. I do not advocate disciplinary or blame culture attitudes but nonetheless some reality would not go amiss.
People who are acting unsafely, whether they are driving too fast or any other form of risk taking behaviour must be stopped. Can you imagine a scenario where someone is seriously hurt, and asked what management were doing about the problem - rewarding good behaviour with a new widscreen scraper. See you in Court would be the reply.
No offence - Ray
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Merv
I did not think I was 100% for stern enforcement - Read my posting again - behavioural alteration through reward was there. But there is also the recognition that sometimes we have to act to protect the safety of others and the miscreants themselves. The scenario if nothing is done on this line is that the "management did nothing and thus implicitly, tacitly and with full knowledge of the consequences agreed with what was happening". Case law clearly indicates that management which fails to act actually is condoning the malpractice.
It is an intractable problem and the more go ahead and thrusting people are, as my own time in telecoms informs me, the more likely they are to be risk takers.
Bob
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Posted By Jim Walker
John,
Your comment "we are a young telecomms with a can do attitude". Sounds more like a infant school to me; with the little brats seeing how far they can push their luck.
Here is a carrot to try - worse offender of the month prize - tour of the local A&E.
Whilst I hate using a stick, you need to get over to these intellectually stunted individuals the potential consequences of their actions.
I suspect they would be the first to start looking for someone to blame if it was them that was injured.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
The three traditional approaches are: education, enforcement, and engineering (the '3Es') Whilst all may be worth exploring, engineering measures are usually found to be the most effective. We do, however, try to go for low-cost engineering measures these days and it can be surprising what can be achieved with painted carriageway markings, chicanes, surface textures and the like. With regard to road humps, have you considered the 'temporary type' (can be slot-together or 'bumps' joined by cables) - or perhaps a few strips of cobbles or imitation stone setts would make life unpleasant for the speeders?
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Posted By john ridley
Thanks for all your input guys and I suppose as with every thread there has to be a cut off point, so this is it. I have digested all you have stated and are proposing the following ways of how we can address this whole issue
1. Increase the speed limit on site from 10 to 29 mph in front of building and along access road,19 mph in road along car park and 10 mph within parking bay areas. This will make it a more noticeable and practical speed limit that is more likely to be obeyed than the current site wide 10mph.
2. Place inspirational safety signs along access road e.g. run a competition for employees children to design the signs
3. Provide an on line facility for people to report offenders.
4. Periodic monitoring of car park and the creation of a “nibblers” book based on three strikes and you have your car pass removed.
5. Full enforcement of disciplinary procedures for repeated offenders.
6. Make car park a pedestrian controlled zone giving pedestrians the right of way in all circumstances.
7. Remove ramps from road and re-site to end of each spur. This will remove the “rat runs” already created.
8. Define "good behaviour", preferably with the help of the people involved - try a "man in the car park" questionnaire.
9. Encourage and recognise good/safe behaviour
10. Measure the baseline - what is the frequency of good/safe behaviour in the car park?
11. Set an objective - preferably with the help of the "man in the car park"
12. Define rewards - "if the level rises to "baseline + X % we'll make a donation to a charity of choice or our social club (Junction 11).
13. Observe and measure the percentage of good/safe behaviour
14. Provide feedback - "this week we were at Y% compared to our objective of x% "
15. Give the rewards when they are gained.
16. Organise a monthly draw with all offenders eliminated. A weeks meals in the staff restaurant can be the prize.
Although I am closing down this thread, should anyone have any further suggestions they want to make, I will of course be monitoring the thread for a while.
Many thanks to all who contributed, it has been very useful and hopefully we all learned from it. All too often I think the forum only argues diametrically oppposed opinions and does not come to useful conclusions.
I will let you know what the final decision and result is.
John
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Posted By Ken Taylor
I would be concerned about increasing speed limits. Drivers generally tend to drive a little in excess of the set limit and 20mph would be a sensible maximum for carriageways frequently crossed by pedestrians and 10mph for those shared with pedestrians. Speak to your local road safety officer or RoSPA about this. Traffic signs on workplace premises should resemble those on the public highway to ensure recognition and authenticity and follow published guidance - although they could be supplemented by others if you wish. 'Pedestrians have priority' would be a useful sign at entrances to the site.
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Posted By interbeer
HI,
I am no safety expert but did nearly get court speeding 36 miles per hour in a 30 zone.
I did not get the big hassle it was only 6 miles per hour over the limit big deal.
I was cought on a small road in the districe of Hull.
I did not get a fine or points but was offered a training session about speed and road safety by the Hull Road Safety part of the police department it cost me £50 but i gained the knwolage that my actions could kill??
You may be able to come up with a simmelar training day if you talk to the local police or contact Hull Road Police.
How about a training sesion for all employees and then three strikes and you are out? or speed safety fines to go to a local charity?
It could be the carrot you are looking for!
Hope this helps Interbeer.
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