Posted By Hazel Harvey
Phil,
The NTU Diploma has a completely different structure to the NEBOSH two part Diploma and is only accredited as a complete qualification. IOSH do not accredit part qualifications, in the case of the NEBOSH the two parts are each individual full quilaifications in their own right. When the revision of the NEBOSH Dip takes place it is expected that this will be in a modular form and here IOSH will only be accrediting the full qualification not part of it.

Posted By Malcolm Hogarth
Forgive my ignorance, but what is NTU?

Posted By Peter Lee
Phil, I dont think it fair to say NEBOSH Part 1 is only half a Diploma, the Part 1 and Part 2 of the Diploma are qualifications in their own right. What does a NTU certificate of attainment mean? If you have succesfully passed the NTU Dip then you can apply for MIOSH.

Posted By Dave Wilson
Phil,

Understand where you are coming from mate, but think you have to draw the line in the sand somewhere, no use bashing NEBOSH as there are other ways to get MIOSH status than the NEBOSH Dip route.

If you have only done 80% of the NVQ4 will this get you MIOSH?

Posted By Peter Lee
Phil,

I think you are missing the point, IOSH recognise Nebosh Dip 1 for Tech SP (5 assignments of 2500 words and two exams plus two years relevant experience.

A person who has completed Part 1 and 2 of the NEBOSH Diploma without passing the exams does not automatically get Tech SP, they have to pass Dip 1 to be eligible to apply for Tech SP are you saying they should be eligible for Tech SP?

Like Dave says where do you draw the line 80% of NVQ4 = Tech SP, 50% PGDip = Tech SP etc etc.

If you feel so strongly write to the membership registrar.

Posted By Dave Wilson
Phil,

can't see the double standard from IOSH, the entry to all levels and the qualifications for Tech Sp / Corporate / Fellow are quite clear and it would appear that you are not quite there in attaining the 'required' qualification, keep going buddy, get the full NTU qualification as it will be well worth it in the end.

Posted By Andy Stokes
I studied the NTU Diploma in South Tyneside between Sept 98 and June 2000. However, after successful completion of 2 modules (2 exams, 4 large assignments) and at least three years in my profession I applied for, and was upgraded to TechSP. The tutorial team at South Tyneside had always said this was possible. I achieved TechSP in April 1999 so I am even more supportive of your concern that double standards are applying here. Wonder how I managed it if you can't??

Posted By Hazel Harvey
Phil,
This is not an issue for the Membership Department they simply follow the rules laid down for them by the Professional Affairs Committee. The fact of the matter is double standards do not apply. You have chosen to undertake a qualification that leads to the academic requirment for MIOSH not for TechSP. Therefore to obtain membership stautus you must have the full qualification not part of it. If you had wanted TechSP the NEBOSH route was available and gives this extra chance as an interim stage, the NTU Diploma is not designed to. We do not give accreditation for part qualifications as I said previously as this would amount to giving recognition for people who do not hold a formal qualification, and as a professional body we do require this. I quite understand that you feel you have achieved in excess of the NEBOSH Dip 1 in academic knowledge terms (you undoubtedly have as NTU is more like Dip 2). However you have chosen to use this route and the rules attached to this route apply. The NTU Diploma runs under university requlations quality controlled by the QAA and part qualifications are not allowed and formal certification is not given.
IOSH certainly has no preference for NEBOSH qualifications over others and in fact as now 54% come form HE with only 22% from NEBOSH it could easily be argued that the HE sector qualifications are favoured.
The situation will become more even again when the NEBOSH Dip becomes one part as there will be no opt-out point within this qualification in any case.
IOSH applys even handed accreditation requirements to all qualifications which are submitted for accreditation in terms of total technical content etc. but this does not mean they are all exactly, the same. The choice available enables people to pick what is best for them

Posted By Lewis T Roberts
Phil

I genuinely think that a diploma is not quite acceptable for what is now a chartered institute. If you look at all other professional bodies that are chartered, civil, electrical, electronic, mechanical etc, a first degree is the norm and as a starting block. Now it seems that a bit this and that and some experience and half a pass and a credited 3rd thing is some sort of pathway. To make things a little simpler I suggest 1 path that is a first degree in a safety specific, not related subject such as nursing, chemistry, tree felling, degree. Follwed with a simple thanks a lot to the 1st generation but lets move on.

Lew

Posted By Philip Roberts
Hazel,
I realise that I am not going to win this argument I just feel that too much emphasis is put on paper qualifications and not enough on experience even when it can be backed up by examined knowledge. I missed the boat on the portfolio route because I did not have time to spend putting it together. I will get MIOSH because my project is almost complete and I have just been playing devils advocate although I believe that achivment should be recognised not just pieces of paper.
As for Mr Lewis your sentiments are so condecending they beggar belief. I have been in front line high risk Health and Safety for 35 years with training from a multi-national company that far outstrips anything I have done for NTU, except the law module, but internal training does not give you pieces of paper so highly prized by the so called would be chartered practitioners.
As one of the old brigade who has studied long and hard at the great university of life experience can be a hard teacher.

Regards
Phil Roberts

Posted By Dave Wilson
and it will come!!!

to become an EHO you need a BSC(Hons) and the pass an APC,. when I did mine it was a Dip in Env health and your in and 40ish years ago nothing!

IOSH will I belive become the foremeost Chartered Institute for Safety professionals and Degree to attain chartered status will be the Norm, not NEBOSH,NVQ,NTU etc unless you have grandfather rights.

As for getting inhouse qualifications, who moderates them? and to what standard.

Posted By Jay Joshi
We have a good system in the NVQ framework.

There is an ongoing consultation to further differentiate NVQ framework at a higher level, especially level 5, so that there is realistic and robust "mapping"., i.e. comparision with university graduate and post-graduate qualifications.

Such a development can only be welcomed as it will permits a different route to qualifications that are "nationally" accredited and recognised within the QCA framework.

It also gives an qualification route to those who did not have an opportunity to go to a university and get a degree.

In this day and age, we need to embrace a variety of routes to qualifications as long as the qualification framework is credible, robust.

The NVQ framework is here to stay and professional bodies affected by the framework cannot ignore it, even if having "Chartered Status" such as IOSH. It is only a matter of time when there will be NVQ's to level 7.

Posted By Jay Joshi
Phil,

Any qualification framework can have pros & cons.

We are now in the 21st Century, when there is no "job for life" and the need to change careers or specialise/qualify/requalify depending not only on apptitude and skills, but demand & supply in the job/labour market. The degree framework is less flexible compared to the NVQ framework. Not only that, but the NVQ framework enables aquiring qualifications "on the job".

The credibility or otherwise of NVQ's depends upon assessment & verification just as the credibility of degress depends upon examinations, assignments and dissertations.

After all, degrees have been around for centuries--NVQ's are recent. Is this a case of not embracing the new and possibly the unknown??


I am a supporter of IOSH getting the chartered status and look forward to the time when individual practitioners can get chartered status.

However, we cannot compare ourselves directly with the Engineering professions in terms of individual chartered status in that we are not called upon to design plant, equipment, stuctures, procesess etc. Some of us may be involved in advising on peripherial safety aspects.

It would be interesting to find out what proportion of persons get Occupational health & safety first degrees--as is the case with the engineering profession.

Posted By Karen Todd
Hello all,

As someone with an engineering degree, I thought I would add my tuppence worth.

I did a degree in manufacturing engineering which (at QUB) is the same as a degree in mechanical engineering except for the final year.

I have used very little of my degree for work, but in some workplaces learnt much much more about certain areas than I had learnt at uni.

We only had to get 12 weeks work experience during our degree.

My sister did an HND in mechanical & manufacturing engineering somewhere else. I thought her course was much better, much more practical. There was nothing I covered in my degree that she did not in her HND, and she also had to take a year out on work experience which is an excellent idea.

I joined IMechE as a student member, then I upgraded to Associate Member. The next step is Member and CEng status. I had thought this would not be possible working in H&S rather than "engineering". However, when you have your professional review (where it is decided if you are worthy), they take into account the industry you work in and there are industry specific competence profiles, indeed there is one for H&S.

Also, you do not need an engineering degree. Some maths and physical science degrees are acceptable along with relevant experience. There are also other routes for those without relevant academic qualifications.

Regards,

Karen Todd