Posted By Saracen11 Hi Melanie, tell your manager you will contact your enforcing authority for further advice, from your posting it sounds as if it’ll be L/A rather than HSE? Tell them to spell out to your manager the dangers of WaH – not forgetting the slap on the backside the company will get if the said employee gets blown into next week. Oh, and document what you have done so far… Regards

Posted By Liam Mc Conalogue Melanie, You did the right thing stopping this activity and highlighting the legislation being contravened. I have been accused many times of being over zealous- however, when time passes and the managers take stock of what I was attempting to achieve, they are more aware of the hazards. But do record what you have done so far! Believe me many times I thought of another career as I am sure that many of our fellow EHS professionals have- so keep positive Melanie. Liam

Posted By AlB And as for wanting to change careers.....I used to think like that around 3 years ago, when I was a H&S manager. It always felt as if I was a hinderance and all the managers did not value my role. Then I was promoted to Operations Management and saw the other side of the coin, realised why management are near always negative (pressure of production, cost, time and effort etc). Then last year I returned to H&S and my whole attitude changed - I realised that I am not paid to keep the managers happy, and I'm not paid to give them friendly advice (although this has to be a part of the job), but my role is to protect the interests of the business and avoid damaging claims and loss of reputation. This obviously directly results in protection of people as well and in most instances gets the results easieer and quicker than just presenting a people safety message on its own. Keep at it, keep rattling away at management when they put the safety of their employees or the public at risk, and if anyone ever challenges you, let them know that it is in the interest of themselves and the business to listen. But also remember - you won't always be right!

Posted By AJM I really do sympathise with you Melanie, I too am having trouble when work at height tasks are done too get managers to come forward for a risk assessment to be done, I am currently working on a policy and education at all levels. As previously stated make sure you keep all documented evidence about the matter and as I did it might pay to e-mail relevant managers with a little rationale behind your concerns with HSE statistics etc, and keep the mail. I know how difficult and lonely this safety game can be at times. It is full of highs and lows but if you enjoy it keep at it. But at the end of the day although it is hard to let go at times we can only give sound advice. All the sayings apply at times like, you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink and there is nobody as blind as those that don’t want to see. DONT LET THEM GRIND YOU DOWN!

Posted By Jonathan Breeze Well done Mel, you did the right thing in the short term. Longer term, I'd go with what Merv has said (apart from the bit where he was channelling Michael Winner that is). Talk with the manager, explain what the constraints are and work out with them how to do it correctly the next time. That way you will gain more respect from the individual and be seen as an enabler rather than a hinderance. I'd also recommend taking a closer look at the Operations side like AIB suggested. You will then learn what drives these individuals and find out that they are not intentionally putting employees at risk, they just don't have the full picture.

Posted By Stupendous Man Melaine, I note that 'I was asked to show my manager in writing, the legislation that says we shouldn't really be doing this. Needless to say, I obliged.' I didn't realise there was any legislation that prohibited the use of ladders - perhaps you could enlighten me?

Posted By Melanie Black Thank you so much for your postings, they have honestly cheered me up this morning. I can confirm that no edge protection or fall arrest equipment was used - it really was just a case of up the ladder and away you go. I was physically shaking after my run in with the manager. I'm sure you all know how utterly frustrating our jobs can be sometimes, especially in circumstances like this when common sense should prevail - but doesn't. I have kept a record of the incident as many of you have suggested, and I feel I will have no option but to make the company directors aware of the situation if this happens again (which I'm pretty sure it will as the weather worsens). As for my hair Merv, it was literally blown over my head to give you an idea of how windy it is here, and it is that horrible fine rain that soaks you to the bone!! I look like a poodle!! Thanks Again everyone, Mel

Posted By Jerry Lucey Hi Melanie, There is a lesson to be learned here for the designers of buildings. A ladder may not constitute a safe means of access and where practicable a permanent means should be implemented, particularly where you are dealing with a height of 12m. The use of ladders is open to misuse. When determining the means of preventing falls from height it is important that designers are aware of the need to risk assess and to follow the 'Principles of Prevention' when determining controls i.e. permanent edge protection as the first option with fall arrest (PPE) as the last resort. You mentioned Melanie that fall arrest was not being used in this instance, and providing a latch-on system or other means of 'tying off' does not guarantee that it will be used whereas edge protection cannot be easily overcome. The lesson in this thread for designers must be that while you may have the best intentions while designing a building you dont have control over the actions of end users and those involved in maintenance. When a building is designed a risk assessment must be prepared and you must be prepared to justify your choices as regards the measures you have implemented to safeguard the end user. As an End User Melanie, I have often found that when you encounter such an issue it is often helpful to prepare a risk assessment and present this to your manager. You are fulfilling your duties under the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 and leaving your manager with a risk assessment to read gives him the opportunity to contemplate the issue. You will often find that given this opportunity and space that a manager will come to you with some solutions.

Posted By Merv Newman Speaking of ladders and roofers, as we are, reminded me of a scene I witnessed a few weeks ago. Stopped at a service station for a cup of coffee. Roof over the pumps was exceptionally high, a good two stories. Two guys placed a ladder against the roof edge, one climbed up and tied it off (cones and everything blocking traffic) Goodness me, thought I, do wish I had a camera as I'm always looking for good examples. Then the younger heaved a gas cylinder out of the van (weight of bottle and gas equals 25 kg (55 lbs)( we have a couple in the cellar for when it is not quite cold enough to light the log fired central heating)) and proceeded to climb the ladder with it tucked under one arm. Mate trying to steady the rather bouncy ladder from underneath. Shouting Oi ! may not have been entirely helpfull. Though I was thoughtful enough to squeeze the coffee cup so hard that the coffee ran up my sleeve and into my boots. (Think that was coffee) Would you have had the nerve to go and have a friendly chat with them ? Once he was "safely" up there (no edge protection etc of course ) What would you have done ? No, nor did I

Posted By David AB Thomas Perhaps you could remind the manager of the Work at Height Regulations, Reg. 14 (amongst others!): 14. - (1) Every person shall, where working under the control of another person, report to that person any activity or defect relating to work at height which he knows is likely to endanger the safety of himself or another person.

Posted By Barry Cooper By the way, my earlier response meant a little late replying to the thread, not that you were late Mel

Posted By Miss B Merv, your first response to this thread, "Are you going to put a claim in for the hair-do ? Seems this was a pre-planned job (next rainy day we'll get up there and have a look) As such it could have been Risk assessed and a safe system of work developed and prepared for days in advance". I found condescending, facesetious, patronising! I observe the forums regularly, and notice you comment alot, for most I would say pro active and helpful. Did you have a bad weekend?

Posted By Miss B It get's better!

Posted By Tony Brunskill Mel, Afraid you got it all wrong. You failed to take the manager to the point on the roof where the employee had been working. On doing so you should have pointed out the risks associated with work at height by throwing the fool off!! Joke, please don't and if you do I will deny everything!!

Posted By John Doe Merv, I find your comments about Merv Newman offensive and patronising. Merv's a good guy.

Posted By steven bentham Nice memo (make sure all the persons are named in the memo and copied in) with a copy on your own file should do the trick.

Posted By Fred Pratley Hi Mel, Strangely enough, the best time to have a roof checked for leaks is when its bone dry! All you do is have a long enough hose pipe and then put the water on full on each section of roof at a time. It can be preplanned, and other works like gutter cleaning etc could be done at the same time, making the whole thing a safe and effective use of resources. Of course the best way of making a roof leak is to go walking about on it when the sealants are cold and prone to cracking. Generally in wet and cold weather. If it were me, I'm afraid that once the guys got down off the roof (and Bl**dy well done I might add) I would have seriously (and NOT politely) questioned their sanity in doing such a stupid thing. If it had ended up in a blazing row with them, so be it. This will happen from time to time. When the facts come out and others talk about such incidents, they will learn you were totally justified in your reaction, and it does make them think twice, as long as you are nice to them when they do things right! Regards Fred

Posted By Merv Newman Trying not to be patronising or fascetious. (isn't a fasces a bundle of the rods used to beat people with ? Normally, in Italian custom, bundled with the axe used to cut their heads off ? I'm not like that. Well, some managers ...) Not too sure about the "hose pipe in dry weather" proposal, but a serious (moderators, may I use a rude word beginning with B and ending in ing ?) is really really called for. Mel, if it suits you, you can scream and shout and tear your hair out. "How could you do such a stupid thing. You could have been killed." "and I would have had all that paper work to do !" "Please guys, we don't want you in hospital !" A few tears can help, too. (not so good for the guys, but not excluded) May not work every time, but it shows that you care for them. Merv Mel, feeling any better this morning ?

Posted By Melanie Black Hi Merv, Me and the hair are much better today thanks!! Thank you to everyone who has contibuted to this thread, you have re-assured me that I did the right thing. They seem to have taken some notice of me, as nobody has gone back on the roof. I will be raising this issue in a meeting next week to establish how they intend to repair the roof. I have, in the mean time, been assured that nobody will be going back up there. Sometimes you have to stamp your feet and be unpopular, but if it prevented somebody from injuring themselves or worse, then I would do it again. Thanks, Mel

Posted By Andy Mel, Have read all the various postings, come into it late im afraid. If it was so windy as to mess your hair up, why werent you wearing your hard hat, I find my hard hat prevents me from having to reapply wax or gel in windy conditions. Seriously though; I have stamped my feet and even lost my temper with middle and senior managers several times over the last 6 years or so, especially in the early days and I can say that in most cases where I was right, the manager has actually appreciated what I have said and their respect for me has increased becuase I stood my ground. Despite what they acually say sometimes, most managers prefer a straight answer, and when under pressure, sometimes rely on you to tell them when they are crossing the line. As long as you are consistent and get it mostly right, they will learn to respect your judgment and moan less. Stick to your guns, it will get easier. Regards Andrew