Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney
Under current legislation there is a requirement to conduct fire evacuation drills at least twice per annum, this is further bolstered by the need to produce FRA's, it would be difficult to justify a S&S FRA could be produced that did not include a plethora of reference points to ACOP’s, legislation etc that state a needs far in excess of a basic fire drill.

They go far and beyond the basic guidance, ACOP’s, legislation for a fire drill.

The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (as amended) require that employees must be given adequate health and safety training at induction and, as appropriate, subsequent safety training at regular intervals.

The Regulations also oblige employers to ensure that all employees are instructed:

Regarding fire procedures
The arrangements for fire fighting
The fire precautions required to comply with the Fire Precautions (Workplace Regulations 1997)

Section 6 of the Fire Precautions Act 1971 empowers (but does not actually require) the fire authority to impose such conditions as the fire authority considers necessary in the circumstances to ensure that:

Persons employed to work in the premises receive appropriate instruction or training in what to do in case of fire, and that records are kept of instruction or training given for that purpose.

Most certificates require that instruction be provided by a competent person to ensure that all staff are instructed at least annually. Some certificates stipulate that this is performed bi-annually and every three months in respect of night staff in sleeping risks.

Such is the centrality of employee training for what to do in the event of a fire that it is one of the three ’interim duties’ imposed by the Fire Precautions Act (as amended), pending response by a fire authority to an application for a fire certificate.

Section 2 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 imposes a general duty on employers to provide instruction and training to ensure, as far as reasonably practicable, the health and safety of employees.

There are changes to consider that will come into force either later this year or early 2007; I refer specifically to the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order.

I hope this is of help to you but should you require comprehensive information do not hesitate to contact me.

CFT

Posted By Glyn Atkinson
I am speechless, and hope that this tutor comes out of his cocoon into the real world where people and their actions matter.

Even if the requirement was not legal, then surely there is a high moral requirement to ensure that all staff, especially in a strange new environment know how the alarm sounds , and how to react to it.

The only full and proven way is to hold a practice drill.

Let's hope that this chap is never caught in a practice or real fire situation, eh???

Posted By jackdaw
I agree that there isn't a requirement to have two fire drills. Our fire certificate states that a drill must be carried out at least annually.

I do agree that there is a requirement to carry out a fire drill - can't quote legislation apart from the requirement stated in our fire certificate.

Under guidance published for the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 - I'm looking at the one for factories - there is a specific requirement in the guidance for at least one fire drill to be carried out each year.

Posted By Malcolm Hogarth
It is always a bit risky quoting 'Legislation
states' etc as there is a risk that one is then required to qualify it. Perhaps CFT could point us in the direction of the legislation he referred to.

Posted By Malcolm Hogarth
Bob,

Is 'guidance for offices' legislation?

As I inferred in my previous response it is sometimes easy to quote what appears to be legislation but may not actually be so. Some time ago I had a lengthy tirade from a delivery driver about manual handling where he quoted legislation at me that I had never come across. He then went on to say what a useless so and so I must be if I didn't know health and safety legislation. After a bit of research it turned out that he was actually quoting an industry Code of Practice!

Malcolm

Posted By Jonathan Hall
The excellent "Fire Safety: an Employer's Guide" (which hopefully will get reissued with the new Regualtions), states that:

"training should be repeated once or twice a year ... training should preferably include practical exercies, e.g., fire drills)" (p.26 of the 1999 edition).

Usually, the specific information will be detailed in the fire certificate: the number of times that people have to have a drill depend on the risk, etc. When Fire Certificates are completely replaced by fire risk assessments, then the competent person assessing the site will make that decision rather than being enshrined in a regulatory document.

However, for most premises, I can't see it being easy to justify a risk assessment which states that no fire drill are necessary.

Posted By Ron Hunter
I get out quite a bit, reasonable social life, etc (even for a safety bod). and in all my years I've never come across or heard of a fire drill in (e.g.) a restaurant, cinema, multi-storey car park or a supermarket(to name but a few). I suggest that there is merit in what that tutor/lecturer said, but he/she didn't pick particulary good examples.
In an office environment, yes, the risk is low; however if people aren't drilled there is an increased risk of panic and consequent injury in the event of a 'real' emergency. I would support the argument against conducting such drills in the type of premises I mention above.
Anyone out there done a Fire Risk Assessment for a Cinema, car park, etc?

Posted By J Knight
Bob,

Absolutely; as I said, I was quite sure you know the difference; my comments were directed at posters wondering why you had quoted guidance in response to a question about the law.

I get people in my organisation saying 'it's only guidance' as an excuse for inaction; its never that simple.

As a further point, if the need for drills 'where necessary' is actually stated in the legislation this gives a measure of just how important the legislature considers them to be,

John

Posted By Tabs
Richie - your title asks if we "need" fire drills.

It is a very simple matter to resolve your question. Go and speak to a few people you have little or no interaction with on a daily basis (reduces their likelihood of trying hard to please you) and ask them to tell you their main and alternative escape routes. Ask them where their assembly point is, and ask them how they raise concerns that a colleague is missing from the assembly point.

If they can answer those questions to your satisfaction, you might be able to say you don't need them. My money is going to be on a set of answers that will make you want to do a drill very soon.

In my expeience, we all need fire drills and it is not just a legal argument, it is a prctical observation.

Sophisticated fire detection does not help people find their way out of a burning building.

Posted By Malcolm Hogarth
Bob,

If not intended for JK then who? - be brave.

For my own part I was seeking to open some debate about quoting legislation without stating what the specific legislation was.
I am sure the majority of contributors are well aware of the status of Guidance notes, Codes of Practice etc and would
wholeheartidly (sp?)agree with the bulk of the contributions to this thread.
I am not quite sure what to make of your comments
about 'attitude' but I will not take offence. (Thick skin, broad shoulders and all that)

Malcolm

Posted By Booney
Is Kismet

I believe S & S is suitable and sufficient

Posted By Ali
New fire legislation is based around..."Risk assessment", which must come as a surprise to many of us ! However, the long awaited guidance is out and ready to download at: www.firesafetyguides.communities.gov.uk
Ali

Posted By Is Kismet
Thanks Booney. Can anybody else answer for Charley ref mandatory twice a year fire drills?

Posted By Ron Hunter
Hi Aaron,

Like you I have been in a supermarket when the alarm went off. I was physically stopped by a member of staff from leaving via a 'break glass' fire door and directed towards the main door.There was no attempt by staff to clear the premises. Pleased to report it was a false alarm!

Posted By Martin Taylor
In my opinion the primary purpose of a fire drill is to check that all arrangements for fire evacuation work in practice. It is not a primary function of training - it can't be ! 1 or 2 drills a year can not train ALL employees nor visitors.

Training of all employees and familiarisation of visitors is key to making sure that people know the procedure when the alarm sounds and this must be done on induction but beyond informing people of the fire alarm tone - followed by regular test sounding of the alarm - the nearest point of escapt - the muster point etc. So when the alarm sounds people know the procedure - I am at a loss to see what additional training an actual drill would provide.

If you operate a site which has very infrequent false alarms then a drill will be required to verify that the planned evacuation measures apply but - as in our case - false alarms are not uncommon a procedure can be established where on every evacuation a repot is compiled of what worked and where there were problems. This is much better than an arranged evacuation where everybody is prepared.

Martin Taylor

Posted By J Knight
Hi Folks,

On Charley's view onm frequency; frequnecy of fire training and practice is set by three things; one is Risk Assessment, one is relevant guidance, and the third is the feedback and findings from previous fire training and practice.

The guidance in Residential Care for example, is Firecode HTM84; this gave a frequency of 2x per annum In Hospitals it is Firecode HTM8x; these suggest annual evacutaion practices. So there's nothing actually in statute about frequency, but there is authoritative guidance,

John

Posted By Richie H
Ashley,

You will be pleased to know that i agree with your policy - training / practice etc and recommend 6 monthly drills as a minimum! Dont always have to listen to those more experienced H&S Practicioners....

RIchie

Posted By shaun mckeever
The original question was 'do we always need fire drills'.

I have lifted this from the RRO which comes into force in October:-

Procedures for serious and imminent danger and for danger areas
15. —(1) The responsible person must—



(a) establish and, where necessary, give effect to appropriate procedures, including safety drills, to be followed in the event of serious and imminent danger to relevant persons;

I think this should bury any doubts for the future.

Posted By henrys
Shaun,

I totally agree with the requirement for fire drills, for all the reasons quoted.

However the section that you have just reproduced does say "where necessary", so I'm sure it will not bury the argument.

Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Where necessary is the term used extensively in both the Fire Safety Order and the guidance and means just that where necessary for example if the premises has only two or three persons working there a fire drill is probably not necessary, but where say 200 people work in premises that are quite complex or wide spread then clearly they would be necessary. The risk assessment should identify what level of fire drills are needed; that's the thing about the RRFSO it does not set out details of what to do but places a resposibility to use professional judgement often called professional fire safety judgement by those involved with fire such as fire brigades and fire inspectors.