Posted By Phillip
Is the Purpose of Fire Extinguishers to

A. put out small fires
B. should a fire happen, enable one to fight your way to safety
C. A + B

Posted By Merv Newman
Phillip,

there is a bit of philosophical dichotomy on this ; should one try to extinguish the fire or to save ones life ?

This results in a decision to protect the equipment or to make sure of a safe escape ?

I'm 100% for the latter. You may wish to intall extinguishers at the far end of a room and at the emergency exit but the only, for me, reason for the emplacement is to allow people to escape the fire.

Sod the building. (sorry monitors)

Merv

Posted By PeterL
Hi Philip,

This raises the question what is a small fire? I ask this because most people would consider a waste bin fire as a small fire, but there is no way you can detemine what the bin actually contains (i.e. it could contain an aerosol) and therefore it would not be safe to tackle this fire even if trained, as most extinguishers do not have the capacity to fight a fire of this nature.

So in my opinion it will always be a resounding B answer to the question, get out stay out and only attempt to fight a fire if it is essential for escape purposes.

Cheers Pete,

Posted By Tabs
And I thought we were all heading towards practical H&S.

By having the appropriate extinguisher in the appropriate place, and a simple introduction during your H&S training (be it fire marshal or even induction training of all staff) one can give people enough information to read the extinguisher and follow the very simple guidance thereon.

The waste bin scenario is a good scale, and in real terms quite low risk in anything other than a very small space.

Merv - I understand your approach, but a small fire abandoned usually leads to a large fire that then has to be fought with an increased risk to firefighter lives - or even other souls in the building that have been unable to evacuate.

I have fought four industrial fires in my 30 years working life none of which took any real effort, but all of which were adjacent to other materials which if left would have escalated very quickly.

If we took a more pragmatic approach to this subject, we might even convince our colleagues to get extinguishers for their home ... by reducing the mystery. A few minutes of demonstration and explanation (starting with protecting your escape first) might make a big difference.

This is a skill that is very transferable into home life, but sadly is not taught anywhere else ... my house has three extinguishers and a fire blanket - and we know how to use them. But you ask Mr Average and they have probably never even handled an extinguisher other than to prop a door open.

Most adults can handle the complexity (?) of squeeze and point.

I think we are missing an opportunity to take H&S forward if we keep saying "leave it to others".

Posted By Dave Adams CMIOSH
Waste paper baskets seem to be used as the SI unit for size of a fire (harking back to the 'curtain' thread a couple of weeks ago).

Based on my experience where fires have started in labs when handling lively stuff like sodium hydride, butyl lithium, etc. or during hot work. If you are handling chemicals or doing hot work and a fire starts you have an opportunity to deal with it quickly. If you are not there when it starts but you discover a fire you have less chance and wont have much knowledge about how / why it started; so the extinguishers are there to aid escape.

Posted By Andrew J. Boyle
Can I just raise an important point. Rather than just discussing how to put a small waste bin fire out, or other small fire, why dont we look at why the fire started in the first place.

This may be the real issue, after all, we will all agree prevention is better than cure.

If you have a small waste paper bin fire, what was the element of heat in it to ignite the paper?

Everyone remember the FIRE TRIANGLE!!

Heat - Oxygen - Fuel

Regards,

Andyb

Posted By Lilian McCartney
If you're on your own and you've discovered the 'small waste paper bin size' fire by the time you've raised the alarm it's likely the fire will be too big for the fire extinguisher.
Raising the alarm to always be first course of action.

Lilian

Posted By Tarquin Farquor
For all low risk buildings ie offices etc it would be to raise the alarm and get out (preferably at the same time). I can't really see the point of having extinguishers in those types of buildings.

That said there are activities that should have fire extinguishers with suitably trained competent operators, ie during hot works, laboratories etc.

There's no such thing as a simple fire, even trained fire fighters get the adrenalin rush and they know there going to a deal with a fire and have been trained for it. But, the average office worker with their video and fire leaflet (if lucky they may have even put out a controlled fire in the car park) opening the store room door to be confronted by smoke and flames from a 'small' fire?

No. Get out and stay out, life first, buildings second.

Only my own view and I respect that others may have different.

Regards,

TF

Posted By Colin Reeves
I still say it varies. In some cases evacuation may not be possible or practicable.

As an example, consider the ubiquitous waste-paper basket fire in the office of a care home. Do you raise the alarm and try to extinguish the fire or go straight to evacuation, let the building burn down? I am not in the care industry, but suspect that evacuation will be slow and, whilst fire doors etc will slow the spread, will it slow it enough??

A second example, evacuate to where from a ship?

Horses for courses, A or B can depend.

Colin

Posted By Pete48
Heroes eh?
Hardly Ever Reach Ordinary Expectations of Survival is how I remember it from when I was Chief Safety Officer Dangerous Places :)
How small is small, how about an LPG cylinder fire for example? Not so far fetched since they are very common in all sorts of workplaces.
Do you run away or fight and control? The judgement surely depends on what you know and your practical skills along with local conditions.
If you want to train employees as fire fighters all well and good, and in some industries/workplaces it is no doubt a sensible approach. But most of us are just ordinary Joes or Joesses. What we will do in a real emergency may be something entirely different from our office chair planning base.
So keep it simple, make sure people know how to use the kit if their life is threatened. If you really think you need firefighters, make sure you train them well. (and I don't mean a tray fire in the car park!)
So to answer the question-B is the default fail safe position evry time for me.

Posted By shaun mckeever
In your workplace you see someone smoking a cigarette. Do you have a fire? (if you are unsure look at fire triangle definition above). Do you evacuate? Well some on here apparently yes.

Cigarette smoker drops cigarette in bin. Has risk escalated? Do you evacuate now?

Wisps of smoke starts to come from bin? Those still remaining do you evacuate now?

A flicker of flame can be seen in bin but not above height of bin. Those still remaining do you evacuate now?

Fire can be clearly seen above bin. Do you evacuate now?

The decision to evacuate must surely be based on the risk. If you are telling them to evacuate every time they see a fire don't be surprised when they get up and leave at the sight of someone smoking (I know it has been banned but you get the point).

A typical waste paper basket has a maximum heat release rate of 4-18 kW (source NFPA 92B). An armchair has a maximum heat release rate of 160kW.

As for the original question, it is only intended that staff use fire appliances in order to safeguard their escape route or to extinguish a small fire while it is still safe to do so. People must not put themselves at risk and should understand the limitations of tackling fires with portable extinguishers, etc.

Posted By PH
I always thought fire extinguishers were for propping doors open! :)
P

Posted By Tony Priest
A few years ago I devised a training package for Fire Wardens Training, and I decided to put into the presentation some statistics, sourced from the Fire Extinguishing Trades Association (FETA). In 2004/5 there were 41,300 workplace fires reported (possible fire brigade call out) there was 612 deaths and 15,600 injuries. FETA states that 80% of workplace fires are extinguished by portable fire extinguishers and a majority of the fires extinguished using portable extinguishers do not make it into the statistics. If we took the attitude not to use extinguishers to fight fires at work/home or choose option B from above, then how many fires, deaths, and injuries would result?

Despite that most people on this thread would opt for B, in my experience most people would automatically attempt to fight a small fire whether trained or not.

In answering the question I agree with Colin, Horses for Courses A or B can depend.

Tony

Posted By Steve Cartwright
Philip

The Purpose of Fire Extinguishers.

The clue is in the title to your post.

They put fires out. They do not do anything else.

To those who suggest that you should not tackle a small fire, i.e. bin size or a computer size, RUBBISH!!!!

Imagine you see a small fire size of a bin. Fire extinguisher in close proximity. You raise the alarm and leave the building.

Lets say emergency response time is between 5 and 10 minutes. By which time bin size fire has now engulfed the building.

Experts arrive and put the fire out. Building destroyed.

Remember most businesses never recover, so you've probably lost your job as well. All because you would not pick up a fire extinguisher and put out a small bin size fire.

I've never heard of anyone losing their life from a bin size fire.

Me I would attempt to put the fire out always making sure I was between the fire and a fire exit. If I could not contain the fire I would then raise the alarm and leave the building.

There is no mystery with Fire Extinguishers. They do what it says on the tin.

Posted By Rob Randall
Hi all,

I can hardly believe some of the answers on this subject. Our profession is all about assessing risk with the purpose of implementing proportionate control measures.

It seems to me that all of the people who say evacuate at all costs are the one's with the mindset that is so often criticised by the press and the general public, i.e. avoid all risk at all costs.

The fact that the RRFSO requires employees to be trained to use a fire extinguisher implies that, in some circumstances, they will use them. Those circumstances are precisely the ones that have already been expressed by the more sensible members of this discussion, i.e. use an extinguisher to tackle a small fire provided that your escape route is not blocked.

The evacuation of the building should be going on at the same time because the person discovering the fire should have already raised the alarm. The response by all except the fire wardens should be to evacuate immediately.

Yes I know the nitpickers will then say "How small is a small fire?" Well the answer to that has also already been expressed. If the fire is still going and you have used up the first extinguisher then get out. If everybody else has done what they should have done all other personnel will be safely out of the building and the Fire Brigade will be only minutes away.


Please let's get real!

Regards,

Bob

Posted By Tarquin Farquor
Sorry, none of the arguments here have convinced me to alter my own personal view.

Common sense ~ Get out and stay out.

Compartmentation, containment and where appropriate automatic systems can suffice.

In previous times I've fought fires (on ships) with extinguishers as part of a first response team and later as the 'fire personnel' with the hoses, fearnought suits, infra red cameras, FB5X foam producing nozzles, spray and jet nozzles to suit.

Weeks of training and drills, still fill your boots when the alarm goes.

Too many things can go wrong with the have a go if you feel up to it approach in an office.

Not meant to be a provocative posting, just my own point of view.

Regards,

TF

Posted By Crim
Tarquin, FB5X - long time since I heard that. Not since I left the brigade 18 years ago. Good memories flooding in!

Fire extinguishers are designed to be used as a First Aid fire fighting measure, much the same as a First Aider would use a plaster or bandage to dress a bleeding wound prior to calling in the experts i.e. paramedic or visit to A & E.

What I mean is if there is a fire and it can be tackled by persons who have some training in the use of fire extinguishers then that should happen but always call in the fire brigade at the earliest possible moment, as well as sounding th fire alarm, you just don't know how effective you will be until you have a go!

If the extinguisher puts out the fire then you can call the fire brigade to cancel them, if it doesn't put out the fire the brigade are on the way.

Extinguishers should always be sited close to exits so that if they don't do the job you can retreat to safety, unless specific risks require their own extinguishers or distances between extinguishers are excessive.

Waste paper baskets should not be baskets, they should be metal containers. You can extinguish a waste paper fire in a metal bin simply by covering the top with a cardboard file or similar, this cuts off the air supply to the fire. (triangle of combustion)?

While expecting some flack now I recommend you don't try this unless there is an extinguisher at the ready.

I could go on and on but enough has been said already.

Best of luck.

Posted By shaun mckeever
So Tarquin you would evacuate on a cigarette alight then?

Posted By Jean
I used to work with the police. Local Fire Service delivered 'training' to fire wardens. Told participants that it was ok if they felt confident to put out a bin fire, cause they got bigger. Attended local Health and Safety Group, fire officer doing presentation from local Fire Service when asked by a bolshy person from same force should we be training our staff to put out bin fires, stated categorically no! I phoned up Local Fire Service, Senior Manager told me that yes, what was delivered in the training was right. Apology, it was a misunderstanding, fire service happy to conduct a free fire risk assessment any building I wanted to choose. Well we were paying them a lot of money for the training.

Posted By Chris G
Having recently been trained in the use of fire extinguishers, I would say their only real use is as a distraction to individual safety. Trying out various types of extinguishers on "small" fires under controlled conditions just showed how totally useless they are. Did the requirements to provide extinguishers in the current legislation come about as the result of lobbying by those companies who make & sell extinguishers?

Chris G