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#41 Posted : 08 October 2007 13:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
If anyone is attempting putting out a fire in a waste bin, it is essential that they have been trained in the correct technique.

Covering the bin with something should be the preferred option.

Squirting a fire extinguisher directly into a waste basket can have the dramatic effect of emptying its burning contents into your face and/or distributing it around the office...

Alan
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#42 Posted : 08 October 2007 13:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Linda Westrupp
Since the unofficial 'SI' unit for a small fire is the waste paper bin, can anyone give the actual dimensions of this hypothetical bin please. Since most offices now have a huge box for re-cycling their paper will there be a new 'SI' unit for a 'small' fire?
I agree with the view that there is no definitive answer A or B, it depends on the situation. What we can do though is give employees the confidence to evaluate and assess (dynamic risk assessment) rapidly before they take action and emphasise that even if they opt for A they still raise the alarm. Most fire fighters don't mind turning up and finding you have put out the fire and they will always check to make sure it doesn't smoulder and then re-ignite later.
Linda
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#43 Posted : 08 October 2007 14:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pete48
I think it is time to call a meeting of safety bods to discuss this during which a "small fire" will be started.
Observations will then be undertaken by skilled observers to see exactly what would happen if a body of safety bods were ever in such a scenario :):):)

One bin and one bin out;
In out, in out shake it all about.
You do the OK not OK and you turn around,
Da da da .............
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#44 Posted : 08 October 2007 21:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Crim
Pete,

you just made the most sense out of this one, chuckle chuckle
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#45 Posted : 09 October 2007 20:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bruce Wayne
Fire extinguishers beside fire doors (or even propping open fire doors!)??
Surely they are primarily to aid escape, so if you are at the door to reach said extinguisher would you be tempted to re-enter a toxic smoke filled building?

Bruce
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#46 Posted : 10 October 2007 12:49:00(UTC)
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Posted By Colin Reeves
"would you be tempted to re-enter a toxic smoke filled building?"

Absolutely not. BUT, the fire extinguisher can be used as first aid to prevent the situation reaching that point.

You seem to be missing the point that early use of a fire extinguisher on a small fire by a trained person is preferable than the economic consequences of "evacuate at all costs" - see references to cigarettes above!

Colin
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#47 Posted : 10 October 2007 15:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Darby
There are some extremely worrying responses in this thread, no wonder health & safety has such a poor image, with some of these people giving safety advice.

The use of a fire extinguisher is no different to managing any other type of risk.

It needs to be assessed relavent to the likely exposure to the risk, and controls put in place. If it is likely to be a small fire, not involving anything too hazardous, then train people, show them the necessary controls and teach them when to stop, how to recognise when it is geting un-controllable etc, etc.

I used to advise on fire safety in operating theatres. It is not practcal to just leave the building in that situation, so we successfully trained people how to handle a small fire and had a good plan of what to do when one was discovered, and how we would handle it. We had good controls and a practiced system. This plan was used very successfully over a number of years, and there is no doubt that if we hadn't handled some of those fires ourselves, immediately there would have been some very serious incidents.

It is very poor safety management to simply say "Do not tackle a fire", That is the same as saying "All fires are the same".

We talk a lot about being risk aware and not risk averse, but it is clear that wrapping everything up in cotton wool is often driven from inside our profession.
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#48 Posted : 10 October 2007 15:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch
All fires are the same!! They are hot and dangerous that is why I personally would not fight one nor ask anyone other than a professional fire fighter to do so. Anyone else is free to do as they see fit. I'll watch from the fire assembly point thank you.
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#49 Posted : 10 October 2007 15:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Darby
I am afraid that the workplace fire figures quoted earlier in this forum thread are completely inaccurate. They refer to deaths in all fires including home, car and fire suicide deaths.

In the UK in 2003 there were 593 Fire deaths in the UK of which only 3 were in commercial premises or workplaces. (Source: Fire Statistics 2003)

This dropped to 508 deaths overall in 2004 of which over a third were caused by smoking materials in the home.

There can be no argument against the use of extinguishers used by trained staff combined with a good alarm system and evacuation plan.

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#50 Posted : 10 October 2007 15:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Darby
Mitch

Out of interest, if you were advising on health & safety for an operating theatre, and the patient would die if they were moved immediatley, would you tell everone to evacuate if there was an extremely small fire started in the theatre? Or would you advise to train up a small team on how to handle an extingusher safely?

And all fires are not the same, a fire being fueled by a free flowing flammable liquid is completely different to 3 pieces of burning paper in a metal waste paper bin.
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#51 Posted : 10 October 2007 15:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch
1st I would not advise anyone on fire safety and secondly to find 3 pieces of burning paper in a waste bin means putting your head (and eyes) over, no thank you.
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#52 Posted : 10 October 2007 20:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tony Priest
Paul

Totally agree with you.

Sorry for the missleading statistics. My point was 80% of fires were put out using extinguishers, how many deaths would there be if we all took the attitude not to put out small fires and to watch from the fire evacuation point?
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#53 Posted : 10 October 2007 23:05:00(UTC)
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Posted By pluto
Mitch

How do you manage to cross the road in the morning?

Anyway the argument has effectively been settled by the government guidance which now makes clear the risk reduction value they attach to extinguishers.

I know we will go through the Courts eventually to get a judgement.
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#54 Posted : 11 October 2007 07:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch
'Cross the road' perish the thought I'm a smoker so avoid exercise at all costs.
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#55 Posted : 11 October 2007 14:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Zyggy Turek
In the dim & distant past when I was 3rd reserve on a natural gas fire-fighting pad near Oldham training Fire Officers on why they must not fight gas fires (better to leave an open air gas fire lit than have gas escaping through various routes!), three of the 12 dry powder extinguishers failed.

Man in protective suit turned off a valve, thus no fire. Unfortunately, this does not happen in most types of building fires and in real life.

What did I learn? Don't put your trust in an extinguisher that may never have been maintained and could let you down (the 3 that failed had!) & advise staff to hit the break glass; get out & call the experts out.
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#56 Posted : 11 October 2007 15:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Darby
Our job as Safety Professionals is to control risk, limit loss & ensure companies can continue to trade profitably with healthy people and equipment. There is often a fine line between property only damage and a human injury. Hence when comparing risk, the reality is that by far the largest proportion of the "serious" workplace fires result in no injurys, but the building is more likely to be destroyed and the business ceases to trade. If that happens we have failed as much as if someone was injured. Don't be naive enough to think that just because everyone escapes with no injuries, but the building is destroyed, we have succeded... we have not. As modern safety professionals we have got to look at the whole picture not just down the "someone could be killed route". There are lots of ways someone could be killed, the clever trick is controlling that risk, not banning everything, and that ranges from launching a space-rocket, to racing an F1 car, or handling a fire extinguisher. We have got to show that we can handle risk as a profession, otherwise how can we expect the rest of the public to?

The statistics prove that very few people are killed or seriously injured in commercial, workplace fires (3 killed in 2004 in non- sleeping premises out of 29,000,000 employed)(That is a very low risk, for those that don't understand the concept of risk). But the chances of the building burning down because a small fire wasn't tackled early is very high (37,000 workplace fires)(That is a high risk, for those that don't understand the concept of risk).

Of the smaller fires, 83% of workplace fires remain in the room they started in. Which adds even more weight to training people what to do, as shutting the door on the fire is a key trick. But the "Get everyone out, stay out" brigade will miss that one by taking the route of telling their staff that when they see a fire the only action avaliable is to walk the other way and activate a break glass call point.

Interestingly enough, it appears (from the info I can gain) that the 3 people killed were all killed from becoming trapped by a large fire and dying of smoke inhalation or burns. The large fire, must have been a small fire at some point, which possibly could have been tackled by suitably trained operator with a fire extinguisher and taught that shutting doors is vital.

As for tackling gas fires, the best thing to do is train the same people who you are training as extingisher operators, how to isolate the incoming gas valve, which is very often located some way away from the source of the fire in a place of relative safety. If they can't isolate it safely, let the gas burn off, do not put the flame out, or you really will end up with no building.

I feel that a number of people who may be advising on fire safety should also add to their company fire procedures that their employees should get increased mortgage and loan payment protection.

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#57 Posted : 11 October 2007 16:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By John_Webster
This might sound silly, but I'll wager that most of those who feel confident to attempt extinguishing a small fire used to go to Scout camp, or such like. It is noticeable that there are some people who are simply frightened of fire altogether and understandably take the "get out and leave it" in any circumstances approach. Yet there are others who have, maybe from hours spent sitting round and controlling small class A fires over many years of childhood, a deeper understanding of the risks involved. They respect fire, but only fear it being out of control.

My workplace includes hospital wards and theatres for which "everybody out" is not necessarily an option unless the situation becomes life-threatening.

Anyone who has ever sat around a camp-fire will tell you that a small fire is not life threatening, but is aware that it has the potential to do unexpected and potentially harmful things.

So in fire training, I first emphasise that nobody, other than the fire service, has "putting out fires" as part of their job description. First priority is always going to be personal safety, second priority raising the alarm. Then, and only then, can a personal decision be made, based on knowledge, skill and training, to use an extinguisher on the fire, and then only if a number of conditions can be satisfied, such as

*Backed up by someone else
*Size of a waste paper basket
*Clear escape route
*No smoke in the breathing zone
*no evidence of "nasties" - gas cylinders, chemicals etc
*One extinguisher only

I have been in several situations where the timely and proper use of an extinguisher has snuffed out a potentially serious fire at birth - one was in a science lab, another at a petrochemical installation. In each case, there were some people almost panicking - Fire, Fire what do we do - and someone who calmly lifted the extinguisher, pulled the pin and did the business.

I firmly believe that extinguishers should, and will be used by those with the competence to use them, and they will know who they are at the time and place. All we need to do is train others that its ok to leave a fire, and that nobody is expecting them to do use an extinguisher if they don't feel 100% op to it.
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#58 Posted : 11 October 2007 16:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch
Nice one John, and on that note.....
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#59 Posted : 11 October 2007 18:44:00(UTC)
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Posted By Crim
I've worked in a fire brigade for 15 years and use a fire extinguisher once, a fish and chip shop where the range was well alight and one foam extinguisher did the job.

A car component manufacturing facility for 4 years with a works fire brigade and the dozen or so fires that did break out were tackled successfully by works fire brigade personnel using one extinguisher each time. Without the trained personnel I'm sure the situations would have got out of control putting a thousand or so employees at risk?

A bus company where the bus drivers were trained to use fire extinguishers and did succcessfully put out the odd bus fire while aiding the passengers to escape.

Other than that I've worked in low risk office environments and never experienced a fire and I put that down to good housekeeping and a good safety regime. I have had fire wardens who I trained myself but never had to use their training.

Just thought I'd jump onto the bandwagon.
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#60 Posted : 12 October 2007 13:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By alan brotherton
The purpose of fire extinguishers is to make money for the people who sell them to you.
This may seem a cynical comment (and I certainly do not intend to undermine the importance of fire safety) but I am sure many members will have experienced the situation where the same Fire Brigade who insist that you must have appropriate and sufficient extinguishers and staff training are the same people, who in the next breath, say "we don't want anyone trying to fight fires - that's our job - just raise the alarm and get out safely".
The only plausible answer is that having an extinguisher available could possibly save a life and help escape if trapped.

By the way, how many fire procedures do we see which say "if safe to do so" regarding attempting to tackle a fire. I have done considerable fire safety training to advanced level but never have I experienced any training which can tell and employee specifically when "it is safe to do so".
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#61 Posted : 13 October 2007 12:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Merv Newman
OK, my last words (you hope) on this.

1. I value human life higher than someone else's building. Or bus.

2. I often, in training programmes, ask the question "what is the first thing to do if you discover a small fire ?" The usual answer is "get a fire extinguisher"

WRONGWRONGWRONG There is something not right in the way we train people.

Merv
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#62 Posted : 13 October 2007 12:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Rob Randall
Merv,

may I please refer you to my previous answer:

"Our profession is all about assessing risk with the purpose of implementing proportionate control measures.

It seems to me that all of the people who say evacuate at all costs are the one's with the mindset that is so often criticised by the press and the general public, i.e. avoid all risk at all costs.

The fact that the RRFSO requires employees to be trained to use a fire extinguisher implies that, in some circumstances, they will use them. Those circumstances are precisely the ones that have already been expressed by the more sensible members of this discussion, i.e. use an extinguisher to tackle a small fire provided that your escape route is not blocked.

The evacuation of the building should be going on at the same time because the person discovering the fire should have already raised the alarm. The response by all except the fire wardens should be to evacuate immediately.

Yes I know the nitpickers will then say "How small is a small fire?" Well the answer to that has also already been expressed. If the fire is still going and you have used up the first extinguisher then get out. If everybody else has done what they should have done all other personnel will be safely out of the building and the Fire Brigade will be only minutes away."

Let's hope that is the last word on this grossly ovedone subject.

Regards,

Bob R


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