Posted By Dave Daniel Mart: You are quite right. CDM Co-Ordinators do not actually have any executive power to dictate anything. Since you seem to employ them I would have thought the power actually lies the other way. You should look closely at the CDM Regulations and ensure that the legally-defined roles are being fulfilled by the right people in the right way.

Posted By Graeme Paterson The CDM-c has a duty to review the construction phase plan, if its inadequate then they should advise the client as such, and works should not start on site until a sufficient plan is in place. Offering to produce the CPP is a very odd one.....the point of the plan is to demonstrate how the PC is going to manage the works, therefore the CDM-c cant realistically produce it.

Posted By Di Clarke Sorry was in the middle of writing a response when the last one was posted I also think I have got the wrong end of the stick as I thought you were being employed as a subbie. Sorry.

Posted By Bryan Goldsmith 16052 Mart, As you correctly identify both the CDM-C and the Principal Contractor are Client appointments. (if the client fails to make these appointments they are deemed to have taken on the roles themselves). The CDM-C should review the Construction plan and advise the client on its adequacy before allowing works to start on site. Until the CDM-C has advised the client that it is sufficiently developed the contractor would not expect to receive written permission from the client to start work on site. Of course the client can give written permission without the 'approval' of the CDM-C but that would be at their risk. As a CDM-C I find that I am to snowed under with CDM work to find the time to write Construction plans although my company can offer the service it would not be carried out by the same person who is appointed CDM - C for the job. Hope this helps Regards

Posted By Mart Surely a CDM-C will approve there own Construction Phase Plan. To me it looks like the Consultants are making it difficult for us so we buy a plan from them. Can i add we have never had CPP's rejected by other Consultant Company's who don't offer this service.

Posted By Di Clarke I would completely agree with Martin's post. I think you need to try and talk this out. Who produces your health and safety paperwork do you employ a consultant or someone in house? If it is feasible I would suggest that your H & S company rep (of whatever type) is there to try and resolve this with the CDM-C to get to the bottom of what it is they are looking for.

Posted By Bryan Goldsmith 16052 Mart, As with any plan/method statement etc, I can't see that it would be good practice for any one to approve their own plans (subject to the risk of the job / Reasonable practibility). In general if all the right boxes are ticked in the competency framework and good co ordination , all aspects stand a good chance of being included whether they are raised by the client, PC, CDM-C or Designers. You have to keep an open mind and look on both sides of the fence especially where you may have Clients / PCs, and Designers from one organisation/ Developers etc.

Posted By Crim It is a duty of the principal contractor to provide the construction phase plan, not the CDM-C! I would look at the points of criticism from the CDM-C and rectify as far as possible if they are seen to be reasonable. The CDM-C is bang out of order in offering to provide an alternative plan. This makes me think the CDM-C is not competent as they are straying from their regulatory duties under CDM? Any further issues should be taken to the client who has employed all relevant members of the CDM team, the client should be told how awkward the CDM-C is being and because of that it is likely that the construction project will be delayed. You could also find out what professional memberships the CDM-C has and report them.

Posted By Crim Just wondering how much they wish to charge for the construction phase plan?

Posted By Mart I don't know how much they charge but it's probably too much. The project in question is a public house refurbishment. After receiving their pre construction information i noted that they had visited site but were unable to gain access. Since all the work is internal do you not agree that their plan would be totally inadequate.

Posted By Dave Daniel Mart: sorry - I mis-read your posting. I see it is the client who appoints the CDM-C. Since it's up to the client to appoint the CDM-C you can't stop them agitating and if the client wants to buy another safety plan, I suppose there's nothing you can do to stop him, but it would have no legal status as yours does and you would not be obliged to ditch yours and follow it....

Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy Dont get me on CDM co ordinators. I could turn your hair. The funniest was the one who walked around a site in Manchester taking notes, then reported back to me that he was very happy with my CP plan...only problem was he was on the wrong site. Another turned up on site and tried to stop our operatives taking out non licensed asbestos. He said there was no such thing? The best ever was a CDMC on a top hotel in London who reported that the site was one of the worst he had ever visited, with no statutory signs and no means of telling that construction work was taking place and members of the public mixing with construction work...9 weeks before we set up on site

Posted By Jane Blunt Mart, I would advise against naming names on this forum. Jane

Posted By Bob Youel On all but the least risky jobs there may be many things in a construction phase plan that will involve the PC, the client and possibly subbies which will have nothing to do with a CDMC e.g. the installation of white goods once a building has been built which the PC will be managing via a subbie/supplier etc. People should only evaluate what they are competent to evaluate and what is in their remit to evaluate Additionally some clients may extend the CDMC's role via the T&C's under which they [the CDMC] work so you need to be clear as to what the CDMC's remit is as on many occasions they are just dog what the client has asked them to do As for the suitability of plans? How long is a piece of string I ask as I have seen small document files for large jobs and VV

Posted By JasonGould CDM-C producing CPP for a Fee = they need weeding out and exposing. CDM-C offering advise to cover how companies big and small can / should improve their plans should there be omissions or deficiencies noted within it = well read the Acop where it says both duty holders will co-operate in the development of the plan. Like an earlier poster has already pointed out, we are years ahead since the need for a suitable construction phase plan have been required. The problem is that many PC's really don't to this day fully understand what the plan entails despite it even being described quite clearly in the new acop. A bigger problem is equally there are CDM-Cs who think the plan should cover all and Sunday in incy wincy detail within a management document. I think the key words are management arrangements and obviously these are so so so misunderstood by many PC's and CDM's IMHO. Misunderstood, and then you get personal opinion on each job by each individual which makes this one of the most pitiful and painful parts of the CDM process. To this day, I have still only ever seen one CPP with descriptive pictures of the site and hazards included within the job. About twice have I ever been given revised / updated plans during a project. Like a colleague of mine once said "its good to talk" e.g. pick up the phone instead of using email. Arrange to meet face to face. Walk the site together and discuss the issues. Ideally bring along the designer so he can start to appreciate some of the issues his design raised. Oops slipping onto a designer rant now (I'll leave that one for another day). Back to topic, Yes in this particular case, it appears that the CDM-C is well out of order for suggesting a fee however the real question should be, was your plan suitable in the first place or not? Regards CDM-C

Posted By northtechsafety It is the Principal Contractor's responsibility to produce the H&S Plan and the CDM Co-ordinators responsibility to advise his client on the adequacy of the docuement. It should not be rejected on minor technicalities as it is a living docuement and can be adjusted and added too as the jod progresses. As long as the basic elemts are in place it should be approved.

Posted By Robert K Lewis We need to be very clear here - An organisation who is the CDMC may also have a consultancy side able to provide other construction services to the contractor PROVIDING that suitable information barriers exist between the two areas and all parties, including client are satisfied with any confidentiality arrangements. My own company often arranges such service provisions but ethical behaviour is the key. I have absolutely no time for those organisations trying to develop work off the back of other activities in a way which is somehow questionable. Bob

Posted By Mart Would anyone be willing to send me an initial outline Construction Phase Plan for me to have a look at and compare? Many thanks Mart

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith Mart, The outline which I follow for the preparation of a construction phase plan, or the one which I use for checking a PC plan is simply the one in Appendix 3 of the CDM ACOP L144.

Posted By bluesail461 Mart, If you want any info drop me an email cheers jez