Posted By Biggles473 Good afternoon all, I am facing potential disciplinary action for emails I have sent which: A) attempt to make the company see that we are breaking the law by not providing staff with lockers for clothes, valuables etc, and B) attempt to discuss with our Quality colleagues the approach that states that staff must remove safety shoes when walking to the canteen (food production unit and canteen in 2 separate buildings). I am against this as the breaks are "paid" and as such the staff are still "at work". Have any other colleagues come up against this attitude from senior management / board members and if so what was the outcome? I'm not looking forward to it but I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong by bringing these things to their attention, otherwise why else am I employed? Thanks in advance, Biggles473

Posted By Francis E S Hone Biggles are you a union member. I'd get some support keep copies of all e-mails make notes of disciplinary hearing discussions ask for all meetings and reasons to be in writing & minuted and keep copies. It certainly sounds unreasonable to discipline you for the reasons you have described even if you were not the H&S person, and why would they require staff to change their safety shoes Regards & good luck Frank.

Posted By Kieran J Duignan Biggles473 One of the hard tasks at any stage in life is making sense of what appears to be unjust. At the same time, when I read that your case is related to 'what I believe', it's worth reconsidering to what extent the issue exercising you is a matter of discretion and interpretation, as compared to 'fact' HR folk face the same kind of dilemmas almost daily and they're particularly heated when a clash involves what is perceived as 'unfair' discrimination, bullying or harassment especially about even more sensitive human issues than footwear (e.g. sex, religion, gender, race). So, another practical tactic is to listen and observe very, very carefully before deciding on how to respond to allegations. Doing so may provide you with data you need to clarify the issues. When you're very committed to good work as a safety professional, it's not unsual for stress to swell out of all proportion to root problems.

Posted By Kenneth Patrick The best advice my mum ever gave me was: "it's not what you do but the way that you do it" My advice would be to reflect very carefully on the advice from Kieran.

Posted By Biggles473 Guys, Thanks fo all the responses so far. To clarify slightly...I am a qualified and experienced safety officer looking after 3 large manufacturing sites with 4 production units all by myself. There is a group safety manager but she resides on the west coast and rarely supports the Yorkshire sites physically. I have investigated the need to remove safety shoes and our risk assessments take account of the fact that staff have to cross a road where FLTs, electric pallet trucks, cars and large delivery vehicles pass along. Hence the need to keep them on - according to the RA. In the canteen itself there is a chance of a hot food, a plate, or cutlery falling onto someone's foot. And finally we have never had an instance of food contaminated due to the debris off safety footwear and I suspect the risk is exceptionally low anyway. I can expect that I will be given a warning of some description as I tend to be a little "in yer face" sometimes, but I get a great reaction from the shop floor and managers when it's done with a smile too. I was recently "shouted down" by a board member for not putting my work times on the fire register. When I pointed out it was a fire register and not a clocking in system I was told that it was now XYZ Co policy and if I wanted to continue to work here I would toe the line. I think my days here may be numbered but I shall not give up my professional principles even if my boss and the rest of the company have. Kieran...sound advice and much appreciated too, thanks. Just downloaded the Emp Act 1996...guess what I'll be reading tonight? I'll also be checking the IOSH code of conduct as I'm a Tech IOSH member here too. Just found out the hearing is in Liverpool and I work in Yorkshire...how fair is that I wonder(?) Especially if I want a colleague to come in with me! Thanks again for all the support and good advice. Biggles473

Posted By Gordon Rainbird In the past I have had stand up rows with Directors etc in an effort to ensure legal requirements are met. Experience has shown it is often not what you say, but how you say it. I still get things done, but no-one gets upset. Never had the threat of disciplinary action though. Don't know the full circumstances of your case so can't comment that much. Is it how the message is conveyed that may be causing the problem? Just a thought.

Posted By Lee Mac Biggles You have received some sound advice here. My advice is as follows: Find a copy of your company disciplinary procedures/policies- can you find the grounds you are being accused of within this document- if not, lucky you. Find a copy of your job description. As a previous poster mentioned- record everything- this is key to substantiating any claim being made against you. Personally I am only after locking horns with one of our more experienced Site Managers, and I admit I have a short fuse when I feel like my advices are being ignored. BUT in my opinion I am not conducting my work in a professional manner and by the sounds of it neither was your board member when you were shouted down, but my concern would be how you reacted- hopefully not like I would. If you have provided good sound advice in a professional manner then the allegations should be easily dismissed when you have evidence. Signing a register- eh am I missing something here- it all sounds like there are a lot of chiefs and not enough indians. I strongly advise you get to work with collating your supporting evidence and ensure it supports your defence. It also would do no harm to speak with IOSH on this as they will advise further. I would be interested to hear the outcome and I wish you all the best mate. Regards Liam

Posted By Phil Rose Biggles - what a horrible position to be in and you have had some pretty good advice from a number of people here. None of us know all of the 'in and outs' of the situation, but if I could sort of re-iterate what some others have said or alluded to. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and over the years I have found that you sometimes have to tackle challenging situations from another angle to get 'satisfaction' or action. Sometimes whatever you do you won't achieve that so I would also advise you not to 'flog a dead horse'. If the management are entrenched in their position then for you there is not going to be a 'win' situation. Accept that and move on - you have done all that you can do. If your job description requires membership of IOSH then the Code of Conduct MAY be of some help, if not then, rightly or wrongly I would guess that it will be of little use to you with regards to this case. Sometimes it isn't what you say but how you say it that will make people 'dig in' and they become an immovable object. Also be prepared that you sometimes get it wrong (I know I have) or even if you haven't got it wrong be prepared to admit defeat and back down. My advice; live to fight another day. You have done what you can do. I hope you get on OK.

Posted By tdunbar I'm afraid that unless you publish the full text contained in the e-mails nobody is in any way capable of giving meaningful advice. Normally the truth becomes the casualty of manys a dispute.

Posted By Karen Todd Hmmm....if they are white safety wellingtons I do remember having to go through a "boot wash" with mine on... KT

Posted By Simon Shaw If you are subject to disciplinary action, my advice would be to emphasise positives rather than negatives. What I mean is emphasise why you did what you did - trying to do the best for the company, only having the interests of company and employees at heart. Don't go on about 'management' not being interested, or only being interested in profit, etc, etc. Hopefully, at the worst, the result will be a warning. I know it is difficult to be critical of oneself, but I would use this experience to reflect on your actions in this event..... Sending emails to communicate this sort of thing is always a big mistake in my opinion. Emails can so easily result in an email slanging match. They also make it look like the sender isn't part of the business, they are simply standing on the outside throwing stones in, getting people annoyed. I work in food manufacturing and I can say that food safety will always be the top priority - and rightly so in my opinion. For example, if safety shoes have to be removed as part of food safety requirements, accept it and work with the management team to ensure the safety of employees through the introduction of other controls. I would also reflect on my relationship with the group safety manager - have you got a good working relationship with her? If not, why not? You should be an integral part of the decision making process, not fighting the health and safety cause on your own. Better working relationships with others within the organisation is the key - talk to them, face-to-face. In my limited experience, I speak to people who see their role as separate from the rest of the business. Yes, they can tell you about all the machinery, the manual handling that takes place, all the chemicals, about the types of accidents that happen - but they can't tell you about the other aspects of the business: the products that are made, sales figures, financial aspects of the business, product development, marketing, etc, etc. We may think about health and safety 24 hours a day but, surprisingly, other people don't. They have their own problems and concerns to consider - the company's not making enough profit, the overheads are too high, the quality of the product isn't good enough, customers want us to cut prices, competitors are introducing new products, raw material prices are rising. Talk to quality people about food safety issues and get a better understanding of why things are done the way they are - work with them, not against them. There is another thread running which asks why people undertake the Masters in Health and Safety. Now I'm not against the Masters course but I would rather see more safety people taking a qualification in management so they get a better understanding of the whole business, not just their bit - I would suggest more people do an MBA.