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zoltangera  
#1 Posted : 10 August 2010 15:29:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
zoltangera

What are the employment law legal implications for this?
Can a company stop money out of wages (say £10 if an employee is found not to be wearing hi vis vest)
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 10 August 2010 15:49:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

They might be able but what would be the point? The duty is on the employer to provide PPE and to ensure it is used where provided. Offenders should be dealt with through the company disciplinary process.
zoltangera  
#3 Posted : 10 August 2010 15:57:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
zoltangera

Thanks Ray,
I get what your saying and you are right. I just need to know if it is legal in the first place (ive been asked the question). My initial gut instinct is that an employer cannot do this (an employee could end up working for nothing, contract of employment etc) but I need to know why?
MrsR  
#4 Posted : 10 August 2010 16:12:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrsR

If you talk to your HR/Payroll department you will be told you can't make deductions without prior agreement. In a past life I worked in Payroll and the software often miscalculated, resulting in discussions and agreements on getting back as little as a few quid.

I doubt the individual would give you permission for taking money out of their pay for not wearing their PPE. You might be able to explore other financial methods, but deducting from pay isn't a viable one I'm afraid.
Steve e ashton  
#5 Posted : 10 August 2010 16:44:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

An employer is not allowed to make deductions from pay... see : http://www.direct.gov.uk.../Employees/Pay/DG_175878

Steve
Canopener  
#6 Posted : 10 August 2010 17:27:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Ermmm doesn't that link actually say in effect that an employer CAN make deductions, i.e. the bits after it says "Your employer is not allowed to make a deduction from your pay or wages unless:

As for the original question, no I don't think that they can withhold money in the scenario that has been placed before us, and I suggest the discplinary route.

I would also add that employees have duties as well!
kdrew  
#7 Posted : 10 August 2010 17:49:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kdrew

I'll be Devils Advocate here.

I think it's a perfectly legitimate move provided it's agreed in writing beforehand. Many organisations already reward their employees for wearing the correct PPE (a weekly spot check to see if an individual is wearing the PPE in accordance with the SSoW gets a £50 cheque) so conversely why not fine somebody for not wearing it?

I anticipate that this might be difficult to get past the TUs though.

Kevin
antbruce001  
#8 Posted : 10 August 2010 19:40:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
antbruce001

The question, as put shouldn't even be considered.

Failure to wear PPE is a breach of Section 7, HSWA, Reg 14 MHSW and PPE regs. Therefore the employers shouldn't just 'fine' the employee, but take vclear action.

By just running the fine system and allowing employees to work without PPE if they are willing to pay up if caught the employer is endorsing the 'non' use of PPE so is criminally liable.

Tony.
RayRapp  
#9 Posted : 10 August 2010 20:50:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

In some countries practices such as fines for employee non-compliance with h&s is the norm. However, here in the UK we tend to be a bit more, er...civilised. We also have many laws which deal with specific issue like PPE, contracts of employment and so on.

Failure for an employee to wear PPE could be a breach of s7, HSWA, however it is rarely used by the prosecuting authorities. One would need to establish WHY the employee(s) is not wearing PPE in the first instance - a minor point which may have been overlooked!

If a pecuniary sanction was part of the contract of employment, albeit unlikely, then a deduction could be made as a result of a disciplinary hearing for example. Whether that would be fair and just may be down to an employment tribunal to decide. Not sure whether the original post was a hypothetical question or not?
Seamusosullivan  
#10 Posted : 10 August 2010 22:20:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Seamusosullivan

No, my understanding is that a company does not have the legal power to issue a fine. It could issue warnings, etc if it already has the correct procedures in place. By following the procedures correctly,This could and should eventually result in dismissal.
Ciarán Delaney  
#11 Posted : 10 August 2010 22:28:10(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Seamus,

You would have to have the Fourt Courts as your avatar ;0)

Are we talking a ROI or an NI/UK scenario?

If we are talking an ROI scenario, and they haven't signed a contract agreeing to this course of action (fines etc), then tell them to contact NERA who will come down and deal with the matter in an extremely forceful manner.

If they have signed a contract agreeing to these fines, then they have to abide by those terms.
David Bannister  
#12 Posted : 11 August 2010 10:15:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

The answer to the original post must be entirely dependant on the legal system applicable in the territory. To answer from a UK or ROI standpoint is likely to be misleading to a reader subject to employment law in Idaho, Iceland or Istanbul.
Ciarán Delaney  
#13 Posted : 11 August 2010 12:59:26(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Stuff, how did you come up with Idaho, in all fairness!!

Seamusosullivan  
#14 Posted : 11 August 2010 18:55:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Seamusosullivan

zoltangera wrote:
What are the employment law legal implications for this?
Can a company stop money out of wages (say £10 if an employee is found not to be wearing hi vis vest)[/quote

Indeed the answer would depend on the laws of the land, because the £ in mentioned it may indicate the UK, Idaho would seem to be excluded as the currency there seems to be the Dollar. I am not aware of any area where a company can issue fines, a fine suggests a breach of criminal law. Where the legal system is based on the Common Law, I understand that the criminal law does require the guilt of the accused to be proven beyond all resonably doubt, and can only be given by someone with the lawful authority.


Canopener  
#15 Posted : 11 August 2010 19:19:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Same here, I assumed £10 was UK but in fairness you never know. Hey, lets cut to the chase, fining for this isn't really the right approach is it? Skinning cats!!!
walker  
#16 Posted : 11 August 2010 19:37:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

If they are not using the PPE just remove them from the workplace & leave the rest to HR
Don't get involved in disipline issues
Ciarán Delaney  
#17 Posted : 11 August 2010 19:39:20(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Walker,

Excellent point, thats what HR are there for

Canopener  
#18 Posted : 11 August 2010 19:54:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

And there I was thinking for all these years that it was a managers job to manage health and safety. I didn't realise it was down to HR!
Ciarán Delaney  
#19 Posted : 11 August 2010 19:56:31(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

The disciplining of errant staff is within the remit of HR was the point being made.
walker  
#20 Posted : 11 August 2010 19:57:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Phil Rose wrote:
And there I was thinking for all these years that it was a managers job to manage health and safety. I didn't realise it was down to HR!


Phil, you are correct but why isn't the manager ensuring the job is being done competetly (ie PPE in place).
Canopener  
#21 Posted : 11 August 2010 20:04:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I don't particularly like using the quote button but the post above was

"If they are not using the PPE just remove them from the workplace & leave the rest to HR"

To my mind that is a nonsense. If people are not wearing their PPE or otherwise not following safety instructions etc, that is very much a management responsibility. You need to look for the reasons why they aren't etc etc etc as has been discussed. To simply pass a health and safety matter onto to HR is a nonsense.

And I hate to say it but discipline and disciplinary aren't the sole domain of HR either. They may need to advise, but again I suggest that discipline and discplinaries are actually a management responsibility, although in some cases the process will be supported by HR. HR themselves don't actually normally discipline, they support it.

By the way, my role resides in HR!!

IanF  
#22 Posted : 12 August 2010 07:44:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
IanF

I have no personal experience of this, but my feeling would be that you'd need to be 100% sure that the employer had met their obligations to the employee before pursuing disciplinary action against them - that is, that the PPE is compatible, fit for purpose, right for the work, etc. Yes, there is of course an onus on the staff to raise issues, but particularly in the current climate, employees might be unwilling to raise problems with supplied equipment in case they fear being singled out as troublemakers.

There could be reasons why it's not being used, rather than they just don't want to (I realise this argument would be more appropriate to some types of PPE than others).
markhenri  
#23 Posted : 17 March 2021 06:52:16(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
markhenri

Now I have to discuss "Payroll" normally is the total of gross wages, commissions, and, bonuses, inclusive of whatever an employee earns in monetary terms and after deduction for (pension contributions, loan repayments, Student loan deductions) paid in terms of salary for the work they had performed for the company. If you want more information and your answer you can read this blog. I hope you will get good results. Visit: Payroll

Roundtuit  
#24 Posted : 17 March 2021 08:58:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Reported - again

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Alan Haynes on 17/03/2021(UTC), peter gotch on 17/03/2021(UTC), Alan Haynes on 17/03/2021(UTC), peter gotch on 17/03/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#25 Posted : 17 March 2021 08:58:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Reported - again

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Alan Haynes on 17/03/2021(UTC), peter gotch on 17/03/2021(UTC), Alan Haynes on 17/03/2021(UTC), peter gotch on 17/03/2021(UTC)
peter gotch  
#26 Posted : 17 March 2021 15:17:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Thanked - again.

Amazing how some manage to dredge up threads from the distant past.

[No, I realise that the bot has some software to help them]

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