BBC carrying an interesting perspective on the imminent potential demise of petrol stations. I like the description of the h&s issues associated with fuelling petrol and diesel. My first thought was some concern for hgv operators who will need to find ways of keeping the nation moving.... Article here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829

Picture of a gas guzzler at a gas station /:)

Having just transferred to a Plug-In Hybrid I do not perceive an imminent decline in liquid fuel usage.

1) There is a real lack of available charging points (including at work)

2) As with all "new" technology there is a plethora of connectors and battery charging rates

3) Even if you locate one working with your vehicles adapter socket you are not guaranteed someone is not using the bay for normal parking

The biggest issue against the historical fore court model is the rate of charge - filling a tank can be comlpleted in under 15 minutes, last time I went to a public charging point it took that long just to connect to the service.

We are also being primed to be exploited - HMRC currently lists £0-04/mile as a business milage rate for electric vehicles (AER), first experience at a public charger was £0-23/mile (electric cost / range created).

The article however if it wanted to consider the H&S slant missed the biggest risk from this new type of vehicle - the trailing leads all over the floor (as pictured)!

You can already picture the forum of the future

- an employee tripped over an EV charging cable in the car park is it RIDDOR?

- are we liable if a member of public trips over an EV charging cable connected to a charger on our land?

Are you sure your 23p per mile figure is accurate?? My diesel cost is currently almost exactly half that! I know ecars are supposed to be cheaper to maintain, but not by that margin! Are we being fed a lie about ecars being cheaper to run and recharged for pennies? Or have you dropped a decimal place (or two) ? I suspect you are correct about the rip off though. And that before the eye-watering costs of replacement batteries are factored in. I know they are getting better but my perception of battery life expectancy is jaundiced by many years of dead and dying lead acid auto (and marine, and ligion garden tool and technical equipment batteries... 

My unleaded hybrid only costs around 10p per mile. If what you say is accurate I might need to wait for my electric car.

I recently went to a conference discussing the roll out of EVs and the effect on Estates and safety  The biggest issue raised (IMO) is the issue of supply. Strapped cash councils - wounded by covid- will not be able to roll out sufficient public chargers, and electrical supply companies are flagging warnings that the UK distribution network will not cope with the speed of the expected EV roll out timetable.

A speaker from an electrical supply company said there are many anxious bosses in his firm and mentioned the period between 16:30 and 19:30 on weekday evenings

As people get home and plug in their cars simultaenously , it will coincide with millions of kettles, ovens and showers - and with gas heating also in the demise, the winter will be worse - especially as EVs use more power in the cold

He said that local networks along residential streets may not have the capacity for this rush and EV charging points may have to be rationed by a curfew arrangement 

Interesting times  

Originally Posted by: Steve e ashton

Are you sure your 23p per mile figure is accurate?Are we being fed a lie about ecars being cheaper to run and recharged for pennies?

The charge point cost over three times my domestic kWh rate used nearly 4Kw and gave 5 miles electric range.

HMRC are being challenged by the Fleet Sector over the gap between AER and reality

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2021/06/09/afp-and-bvrla-call-for-hmrc-to-review-ev-company-car-mileage-rate

Originally Posted by: chris.packham

What happens with the virtually silent electic vehicle.

EU type approval mandates the inclusion of a "noise" - the manufacturer installed a button to switch this off!

Originally Posted by: Messey

A speaker from an electrical supply company said there are many anxious bosses in his firm and mentioned the period between 16:30 and 19:30 on weekday evenings.... and EV charging points may have to be rationed by a curfew arrangement

The conspiracy theorists will tell you your domestic Smart Meter can identify when a car is on charge (not hard given the surge in demand it causes) and could also be used to limit supply.

Never really trusted them having read Marc Elsberg's "Blackout"

I think that something has to be done to improve sustainability.

However, if I was responsible for users utilising EV's for business use & I had the knowledge I do of the UK public charging network that I have, I would not be allowing employees to use it!

It's not only the "National Grid" that can't support the load.

I have seen some public charge point installations that are downright dangerous, and nowhere near capable of carrying the load that they are going to be required to.

Some of these installations are going to go black site-wide in the event of these points being used in serious numbers.

I don't for one-second doubt that someone is going to be killed by a public charge point in the UK soon.

In fact, I think that unless something is done, it is going to be how many people have to die before something is done about it.

I had a chat with an Amazon driver the other day and asked him about the electric delivery vans.  He told me he can do all his deliveries on a single charge overnight.  He said they do 100 miles but he only does about 60 everyday.

There is a downside as they break down a lot but I don't think it is due to the electrics.

My hybrid, petrol and self charging electric currently does over 50 mpg.

The reason petrol stations will close and vanish is there will soon be no petrol of diesel cars available.

Progress ?????

There is of course a major issue regarding petrol/diesel cars, and that is the rapidly dwindling reserves of crude oil across the world. It is getting harder to access what's left; you only have to look at the set up during the Deepwater Horizon incident. Frantic attempts were made to extract more gas by fracking of the shale, but this seems to have declined amid concerns over the effects on geology. We simply can't carry on relying on oil, but what is needed is a joined up, logical approach to alternatives, which I have yet to see. Since we are the windiest country in Europe, it would make sense to generate more power from the wind, but then we hit the NIMBY syndrome. People want electricty, but won't tolerate wind turbines anywhere near them. This has forced wind farms offshore, which presents real maintenance issues, not to mention the risk to shipping. We do have some hydro-electric schemes, but with the exception of Scotland, there doesn't seem to be any move to have more. We have been shutting down coal fired power stations for a long time, but where are the viable alternatives? Some moves, albeit haltering, have been made towards increasing nuclear power, but do we really want to leave future generations with a huge radioactive waste problem?

Much lauded conferences, such as the recent G7 in Cornwall, in reality achieve little on the environment; too many vested interests. So, a cultural inertia sets in, and we just keep on bumbling along.

Wow, cows could save the nation. We just have to work out a way of collecting their methane without depriving dung beetles of their food source.

Originally Posted by: Alan Haynes

Banning the sale of new petrol/diesel cars won't get rid of such cars from the roads. 1. Any car bought just before the ban could easily still be running 10 - 15 years after the ban

That, I think, is begging the question - you're assuming that petrol stations will still be around because petrol cars will still be around to generate the demand for petrol stations.  But if the majority of car traffic goes electric (and the majority of car traffic is under 300 mile round trip, so that's already not a reason not to) then the majority of the petrol demand goes, and then people get rid of their petrol cars because it's become incovenient to find petrol. The shift to electric accelerates.

Yes there will be some people running petrol cars.  There are some people still running coal-fired steam lorries and traction engines.

Not so sure about that.  I'm mindful that modern cars engines don't actually run very reliably - they keep going only when a computer tweaks and fiddles a million times a second.  I think cars built in the next few years will become unserviceable quite quickly - in much the same way as we couldn't keep one Vulcan flying but there are dozens (about 60, I believe) of airworthy Spitfires still up there.

I have a 1962 diesel engine that's 100% mechanical (hand cranked start).  It had a full strip and rebuild a couple of years ago (though actually bearing and cylinder wear was so little it's still on the originals).  The amount I run it, I expect it will still be capable of running happily in another 40 years. I can, if necesary, manufacture diesel fuel that's good enough for it from vegetable oil.  However, I very much doubt my current car engine will be running 100 years after manufacture.

Leaving aside the fact that you're assuming there will be no improvement in range in the next ten years (what was the range and performance of electric vehicles ten years ago?)  this seems quite like a coachman proclaiming that these new-fangled internal combustion infernal things will never catch on.  Stands to reason - you'd need somewhere selling their 'petrol' in every town because they can only go 30 miles on a tank. Who's going to build a 'petroling inn' when there's no demand?  If it breaks down where will you find someone that knows how it works?  You don't need a fancy boffin to feed a horse. If you want to go the length of the country you need a good reliable coach and horses - no bother, there's an inn with stables everywhere you need it, if one throws a shoe even small villages have a blacksmith.   It's obvious 'internal combustion' will never replace the coach and horses.

Edited by user 14 June 2021 12:02:59(UTC)  | Reason: spilling

Must admit there was a steep decline in sales of Haynes as more mystery vanished in to the "black box".

We are still unfortunatley in the world of "computer says" as several times with various vehicles I have had refunds because the teen running the diagnostic got it wrong and the car went back to the dealer.

Current technology is yet again well in advance of the technical colleges so there are a distinct lack of "technicians" to interrogate and repair this modern fleet.

By update I went to the public charger again - this time the shopping was only 30 minutes hooked up - added 3 miles range (woo hoo) at a revised cost of £0-35/mile.

Also found out that if I stay longer than 90 minutes at the charge point there is a penalty charge every additional 90 minutes of £10. Now given 1 mile range appears to equate to 10 minutes on charge this is going to get damned expensive to achieve full charge for the stated 38 miles of pure electric.

Any emissions scandal lawyers want to get ahead of the curve?

I really like the way this discussion has gone.! Thank you people for the erudition, the sharing of experience and (mostly) for the humour.! I have been here much less frequently recently., but this thread makes me want to return again. Thank you everybody😊👍

Steve, you might need to visit more regularly before someone decides to introduce a system to demote you from your Super User status.

P

The issue we all face is that governments are influenced by all sorts of people and groups.  These range from scientists through lobbists through environmentalists through pressure groups.  The vast majority of these are are either a single person through to smallish groups who have roped in any number of people who like the cause they are currently shouting about.  As they always do governments tend to try and please these groups because they shout loudest and most politicans work in the short term or until the next election whatever is closest.  In all of this the real problem is often ignored in favour of pleasing the vocal minority.  

To date no one I feel has made a convincing case for switching to electric cars or those with alternate fuels which do or don't drive themselves. What ever system comes to the fore will require a vast infrastructure which will have a huge carbon footprint.  

So I feel that the government needs to look long and hard at all the options and include in that what the carbon footprint will look like.  Then make a serious decision base on the available facts. 

Who knows it may be less damaging to stay with what we have now.  As for me I'm off to buy a tandem and trailer so that me an the good lady can get around!!!!!

Edited by user 15 June 2021 10:03:55(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling error

Originally Posted by: Gerry Knowles

So I feel that the government needs to look long and hard at all the options and include in that what the carbon footprint will look like.  Then make a serious decision base on the available facts. 

As if that's going to happen! Have you seen our government in action?

Come back George Stevenson, all is forgiven.