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Pamela Breffitt  
#1 Posted : 11 January 2022 09:36:29(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Pamela Breffitt

Hello, I am planning to get my kitchen refurbished and I want to know if it comes under CDM and what my responsibilities are. The kitchen has been designed and scheduled but there has been no mention of CDM by the kitchen designer/supplier. The work consists of:

  • Removing internal non-load bearing wall
  • Rip out existing kitchen and flooring
  • New electrical work for sockets etc.
  • New plumbing for heating and water etc.
  • Plastering all damaged walls and ceiling
  • Removal of old heating pipes that have been boxed in and redundant for many years - non asbestos
  • Fitting new flooring and cabinets

Work is planned to take less than 10 working days.

Kate  
#2 Posted : 11 January 2022 10:06:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

If this is your kitchen at home, then CDM does apply, but you as a domestic client have no responsibilities.  It is up to the contractor to make sure it is all done safely.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
Pamela Breffitt on 11/01/2022(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#3 Posted : 11 January 2022 11:26:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

I had my bathroom refitted over two weeks before Xmas and the one-man band plumber in a van used the Construction Phase Plan template from the HSE (CIS80), without me mentioning anything.

There is also an APP from CITB, which is mentioned in CIS80, that does the same thing.

I have to say though that I was surprised my plumber had it and presented me with a copy.  Perhaps it was because he knew what I did for a living and he knew about CDM from his time in the public sector??  Generally, in my experience, the people doing this kind of work are blissfully unaware of CDM and have an almost zero chance of being caught out by it.  The good ones will be doing what is required without really realising that they are following the principles of CDM for this type of work.

peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 11 January 2022 11:52:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Pamela

Sound advice from Kate and Holliday.

Assuming that there is more than one contractor doing this work, CDM will apply but it is up to others to sort out the CDM issues, as you count as a "domestic client". For information, L153 is the free download guidance from the Health and Safety Executive.

The one thing that makes me nervous is the redundant stuff that has been boxed in for many years. 

Depends on what "many years" means but if the boxing in was done before 1999, it is far from unlikely that Asbestos Containing Materials (ACMs) were used for whatever reason. Now the people who do this for a living all the time may be able to easily reassure you that what they are removing can reasonably be assumed not to include ACMs but it might be worth asking the question.

I am in a similar situation at present. We are due to get an upgrade to the electrical supply into our building. Constructed in 1880 when ACMs had not become popular, but converted into flats in the 1960s by which time ACMs were in vogue - so I am concerned about some elements of what needs to be done to put much larger openings into parts of the building structure. Some bits are very obviously NOT ACMs - e.g. drilling a larger hole through a stone staircase, other penetrations more problematic as could be cutting through ACM fire protection.

firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 20 January 2022 13:36:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I just wonder if there is a claim against the contractor which ends up in court would the Judge or Magistrate bounce it back to the domestic client who works at H&S for a main employment and sey they "Ought to know"?

A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 20 January 2022 14:05:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The judge only looks at the case brought before them, so unless a claim was made against the property  owner there is no case for the owner to answer. I am now trying to imagine a scenario where a claim is being made against the owner of property for the action of  a contractor working on that property ( remember CDM is about criminal law) and unless there is evidence that the property owner directed a  contractor to work in particular way there is no case. The property owners qualifications are not relevant.

Edited by user 20 January 2022 16:46:20(UTC)  | Reason: spellings

Kate  
#7 Posted : 20 January 2022 14:44:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Judges are fond of saying "This is a court of law, not a court of morals."  They are not out to determine whether people are diligent and responsible citizens but whether they have broken the law.  If you have no legal duties relating to whatever has happened then you cannot have breached any of them and a judge has no interest in you beyond any witness evidence you may happen to have.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 20/01/2022(UTC)
firesafety101  
#8 Posted : 20 January 2022 18:01:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I don't know about anyone else but if I employ a contractor to do a job in my house I never require all the documents they would need if working for a client. There is a lot of stuff I let go, nothing dangerous I must add, like using a power saw outside in the garden without extraction, or perhaps wearing the wrong type of goggles, or dust mask (if they even wear a dust mask).  I do always ask if they are insured.

If the contractor and I have a discussion about how he should tackle an awkward part of the job and I come up with a suggestion that he agrees with, then something goes wrong and he decides to sue me then I think the judge would say "I ought to have known" because of my H&S experience nd qualifications.

It could be that I sue him for damages if my suggestion leads to damage to my property.

 

Kate  
#9 Posted : 20 January 2022 18:13:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

If you have been engaged by the contractor to provide H&S advice then I can see you would be liable for providing bad advice.

If you are a domestic client offering an opinion about how the contractor should carry out the work, then the contractor is entitled to ignore your opinion and indeed is obliged to do so if your suggestion is unsafe.

It doesn't matter how qualified or not you are.  If you ask or instruct a contractor to do something unsafe then their duty is to refuse.  The Health and Safety at Work Act applies to them because they are at work.

The dictum "The customer is always right" does not apply when the customer asks for something unsafe or illegal.  

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
firesafety101 on 21/01/2022(UTC)
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