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achrn  
#1 Posted : 22 June 2022 13:36:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Is signage saying 'do not use this lift in the event of a fire' an actual statutory requirement?  If so, where is teh requirement found?  Our lift is old technology (but properly maintained, LOLER, etc)  and it doesn't park itself at ground when the fire alarm goes off.

(I've just had my periodic recurrent disagreement with an auditor about how much signage we need to have - I know I'm right about some of it, but not so sure about the lift one).

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 22 June 2022 13:59:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I thought the issue with lifts was that if there is a fire and the power may get  cut off and the lift and its passengers end up stuck between floors in a burning building.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Brian Hagyard on 22/06/2022(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#3 Posted : 22 June 2022 14:33:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

will admit fire is not an area i deal with very often - but i have always gone with the same reason as A Kurdziel - as part of teh risk assessment. Just did a quick google (other search enginbes are available) and found this:

The use of lifts for fire emergency evacuation | Croner-i (croneri.co.uk)

Have to say i usual find croneri a reliable source of info.

There are some interesting bits in this 

 normally dictates that passenger lifts should not be used for emergency evacuation. This is reflected in government guidance that notes that a lift not specifically designed as a fire fighting or evacuation lift is “not normally considered acceptable as a means of escape”.

BS 9999:2017 Fire Safety in the Design, Management and Use of Buildings. Code of Practice, which states that lifts not explicitly designed for evacuation should not be used for general evacuation, “but they may be used for the evacuation of disabled people” provided that certain recommendations are met

BS 9999 provides a useful list of factors to be considered when assessing the use of a passenger lift, including the:

  • interface between the lift control system and the fire detection and alarm system so as to support the evacuation management strategy

  • controlled operation of the lift will be possible during an evacuation (evacuation switches)

  • power supply to the lift is likely to remain usable throughout the time required for evacuation.

Other factors to consider will be in relation to the measures built into the property including the provision of a refuge area, communication equipment, protected lobbies, etc.

The risk assessment should be evaluating whether the lift meets the recommendations given in Annex G of BS 9999. The same requirements are now also found in Annex C of BS 8899. The criteria set cover both physical elements and managerial elements such as:

  • a minimum size for the lift car and doors

  • the basic requirements of BS EN 81-20/81-70 are met

  • power should be provided from a dedicated submain circuit

  • trained staff should be designated to manage the use of the lift.

Where all relevant criteria are met and the risk assessment justifies the use of the passenger lift, then a suitable strategy can be developed for the use of the lift for evacuation purposes.

Not sure i could persuade a fire risk assessor of this and key would probably be power supply to the lift is likely to remain usable throughout the time required for evacuation. - but interseting reading. 

If the lift is not to be used (because of your fire RA) I would be putting a notice on it.

A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 22 June 2022 14:51:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I thought the issue with lifts was that if there is a fire and the power may get  cut off and the lift and its passengers end up stuck between floors in a burning building.

achrn  
#5 Posted : 22 June 2022 15:13:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Thanks for comments.

To clarify, I'm not proposing using the lift in a fire.  Our fire instructions (at each manual call point) say don't use the lifts, and our induction says don't use the lifts, and no-one has ever attempted to use the lift during a fire drill.

I just despise excessive uneccesary signage, especially when it's ugly.

If it's required by law, I'll put it up.  If it's 'gold plating' I will probably resist it.

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 22 June 2022 15:42:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

achrn

IFF all lifts not specifically designated for use to aid evacuation had to have such signs we would see many, many of them.

To be honest, I can't remember when I last saw such a sign IN the lift.

So, I suppose, back to first principles with auditors. Ask the auditor to explain their rationale for any adverse comment even if it is an "Observation" rather than Non Conformance Report.

If they can't come up with chapter and verse, then it's probably sensible to say NO.

Unless they are a dalek they shouldn't be saying "Resistance is Useless" and even if they are a dalek all you need is to hone up your Dr Who powers.

Alan Haynes  
#7 Posted : 22 June 2022 20:04:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for comments. To clarify, I'm not proposing using the lift in a fire. Our fire instructions (at each manual call point) say don't use the lifts, and our induction says don't use the lifts, and no-one has ever attempted to use the lift during a fire drill. I just despise excessive uneccesary signage, especially when it's ugly. If it's required by law, I'll put it up. If it's 'gold plating' I will probably resist it.
What about visitors to the site?
Kate  
#8 Posted : 23 June 2022 06:34:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The requirement is found in the need to inform people about what to do in a fire, including not using the lift for the reasons given above.

A sign beside the lift would seem to be a reasonably practicable method of informing people not to use it.

That is clearly going to be more effective than a fire action notice somewhere else as anyone intending to use the lift will encounter the sign.

The fact that no one has used it yet in an evacuation is irrelevant. Unless something is very wrong in the building, evacuations happen quite infrequently so there is not enough data to arrive at the conclusion that this isn't going to happen.  One day, there may be someone in the building who has an injury, or is frail, or has a disability making it difficult to use the stairs, or is just tired, and will therefore be tempted to use the lift.  Have you done what is reasonably practicable to tell them not to?

thanks 2 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
Brian Hagyard on 23/06/2022(UTC), A Kurdziel on 24/06/2022(UTC)
Kate  
#9 Posted : 23 June 2022 06:39:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I also despise unnecessary signage, but this one serves a valid purpose.

If you only ever did what is directly and explicitly prescribed in the law, you wouldn't have any fire precautions at all because the law about fire precautions isn't prescriptive. 

If the problem is that the sign is ugly, then why not design your own, prettier sign?

thanks 2 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 24/06/2022(UTC), Messey on 28/06/2022(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#10 Posted : 23 June 2022 06:50:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

i would use the sign to comply with Regulation 19 of The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 - information for employees. The sign itself may not be specified - but its an instruction not to use and therefor information.

achrn  
#11 Posted : 23 June 2022 08:29:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post

If the problem is that the sign is ugly, then why not design your own, prettier sign?

Yes, I thought about that - something nicely engraved in stainless steel to match the lift surround.  Sadly, I'm also lazy and a cheapskate, so it will probably be ugly self-adhesive vinyl anyway.

Messey  
#12 Posted : 23 June 2022 14:49:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messey

Article 15 (1)states

The responsible person must—

(a)establish and, where necessary, give effect to appropriate procedures, including safety drills, to be followed in the event of serious and imminent danger to relevant persons;

If your procedure is not to use the lift, then signage is a sufficient method of informing relevant persons, epecially those who are not employees so are not within your control 

stevedm  
#13 Posted : 23 June 2022 16:02:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Peter...being the geek that I am - 'to resist would be futile', along with 'DESTROY, DESTROY, DESTROY...'

I know a few production managers that seem to live by these words...

thanks 2 users thanked stevedm for this useful post.
peter gotch on 23/06/2022(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 24/06/2022(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#14 Posted : 24 June 2022 07:17:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Turning lifts off used to be a good control to protect from Daleks - but the buggers can now flt! Good example of how systems need to develop with time - Now can we go back to John Pertwee and Bessy (1954 Ford Popular 103E!) (or am i just an old Friday Grumpy Old Man?)

chris42  
#15 Posted : 24 June 2022 09:00:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Come on guys and girls.

Star trek – enemy is the Borg and their slogan is – “Resistance is Futile” they then assimilate you and turn you into another Borg.

Dr Who – enemy is Dalek’s and their saying is – “exterminate”

Daleks originally could not go over rough ground or on stairs however in a more recent ( few years ago) episode they could hover  / fly and go up stairs ( looked a bit like they were on a stair lift.)

On a slightly side note – a spin off from star trek called “Picard”, when the war with the Borg who had their cube space ship was over. In one scene some of the main characters were on a Borg cube have a discussion and in the background on the wall was a sign that said:

2964 days since the last assimilation

The number may not be exact, but you get the gist, made me laugh anyway.

Sorry to the OP it is Friday and I’m on holiday next week and I have given up already.

 

Internet seemed to suggest that you can get a brushed aluminium and red sign for about £14.

 

Ps if there was a safety enemy to joe public – would their saying be – Safety is Compulsory

And Betsy was ok until it rained, but yellow and black so good safety colours

Ok I’ll get my anorak and go

Chris

thanks 2 users thanked chris42 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 24/06/2022(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 24/06/2022(UTC)
Kate  
#16 Posted : 24 June 2022 09:04:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The Daleks also have a catchphrase "Resistance is useless" - the Borg one is only a variant of this.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
chris42 on 24/06/2022(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#17 Posted : 24 June 2022 11:28:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

Come on guys and girls.

S

Sorry to the OP it is Friday and I’m on holiday next week and I have given up already.

 And Betsy was ok until it rained, but yellow and black so good safety colours

Ok I’ll get my anorak and go

Chris

You know what i thought it was Betsy - but google (other internet serach engines are avialable) says it was Bessie - and as we know if its on the internet it must be true! Is it home time?

chris42  
#18 Posted : 24 June 2022 11:47:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

According to internet search at Doctorwhoworlduk it was called Betsy and later Bessie 2, so feel good you were right first time.

The day really has gone out the window now, but a light hearted end to the week

Roundtuit  
#19 Posted : 24 June 2022 11:53:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Peter Cushing

Klingons (the Firm didn't sing about the borg)

Whomobile (looked like Blofeld's Bathosub in Diamonds are forever)

Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 24 June 2022 11:53:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Peter Cushing

Klingons (the Firm didn't sing about the borg)

Whomobile (looked like Blofeld's Bathosub in Diamonds are forever)

firesafety101  
#21 Posted : 27 June 2022 21:36:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I was once told by a fire prevention officer that you can't have too many signs.

Once the fire alarm is sounding and flames are burning your rear end it is too late for asking questions.

Problem with nice signs that blend in with the lift surround is they "BLEND IN" and therefore become almost invisible.

No more Mr Nice Guy, I would have signs that are easily seen from a reasonable distance and can be read once close up.  Also consider Brail for partially sighted people.

Brian Hagyard  
#22 Posted : 28 June 2022 09:18:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

I was once told by a fire prevention officer that you can't have too many signs.

Dont they then become a fule source? Sorry i know but could not resist - but on a more real note I dont agree people become "Sign Blind" if you are not catful and have two many.

thanks 1 user thanked Brian Hagyard for this useful post.
peter gotch on 28/06/2022(UTC)
peter gotch  
#23 Posted : 28 June 2022 10:28:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

I'm with Brian on this. Too many signs are counterproductive.

Exactly the same as putting everyone into yellow hi-vis (or orange on the railways) - there was a waste management company who did a little unscientific experiment in a shopping centre. 12 waste staff in the shopping centre. The customers could only remember seeing a few. When they then put the same staff in pink hi-vis they stood out and the customers saw many more.

Yellow hi-vis is everywhere and so becomes invisible. So are signs that all conform with standard rules,  and often with soooooooo many.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Brian Hagyard on 28/06/2022(UTC), SNS on 29/06/2022(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#24 Posted : 28 June 2022 10:41:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

I remember visiting a site a number of years ago where they asked me to wear a Pink Hi Vis - Visitors Jacket rather than my own coat - well vistor is what they classed it as - the opratives called them "numpty" coats - the reason - as Peter says - i stood out like a sore thumb as someone who would not fully know the safe systems of work etc on the site - quite happy to comply.

Messey  
#25 Posted : 28 June 2022 15:42:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messey

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

...... people become "Sign Blind" if you are not catful and have two many.

I agree. Too many signs aint a great idea ;)

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