Rank: Forum user
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We ghave just become the guardian for a public access defibrelator. Do I need to do a risk asseseement for this?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Why do you perceive a need for a Risk Assessment? If it is "public access" then getting to the equipment is normally by some form of code provided in response to a telephone call. As the guardians you would require some form of documented arrangements for the business to follow e.g. how do the public gain access the device, who checks the condition / arranges repair or replacement?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Why do you perceive a need for a Risk Assessment? If it is "public access" then getting to the equipment is normally by some form of code provided in response to a telephone call. As the guardians you would require some form of documented arrangements for the business to follow e.g. how do the public gain access the device, who checks the condition / arranges repair or replacement?
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Rank: Forum user
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I think it would be sensible but it will be relatively straighforward. And having advised you to do this I'm going to write one up for the 4 publicly accessible defibs that I'm responsible for! Problem: Defibrillator is not accessible when required Control - It's in a cabinet in reception area (or wherever it is) Tamper proof seal on cabinet shows whether the cabinet has been opened.
- receptionist checks every day that it is present and that tamper proof seal is not broken
Problem Defibrillator doesn't work when needed Control
- Battery display is checked monthly - battery replaced if battery shows less than 100% or within 3 months of expiry date.
- Pad expiry date recorded - pads replaced if within 3 months of expiry date
- Contents checked if tamper proof seal is broken
- Defib unit
- Adult and Paediatric pads
- Sealed starter kit
- Defibrillator logged on "The circuit"
- Self test record checked monthly
Problem
Staff don't know how to use defibrillator Control - All staff shown where the defibrillator is and given permission to allow any person to access it if needed
- Staff have been given a "toolbox talk" on how to use it
- Instruction card prominently displayed inside the Cabinet
I used "Problem" and not "hazard" or "risk" - that's because I get a bit scratchy about safety pedants who will argue for days about the difference between a risk and a hazard when actually what we're talking about is "whats the problem". Obviously what you do won't be exactly the same as that but I don't think it will be far different
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Rank: Super forum user
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Well, pedantically, as you say, I don't think that is a risk assessment. It is a description of how the defib can be correctly used when required.
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2 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: RichardPerry1066 I think it would be sensible but it will be relatively straighforward. And having advised you to do this I'm going to write one up for the 4 publicly accessible defibs that I'm responsible for! Problem: Defibrillator at one location is not available due to fault / theft Control: Hold a central spare that can be readily switched out for any of the four units you are responsible for
As Kate says still not a risk assessment - at best this is a decision tree aka .......
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: RichardPerry1066 I think it would be sensible but it will be relatively straighforward. And having advised you to do this I'm going to write one up for the 4 publicly accessible defibs that I'm responsible for! Problem: Defibrillator at one location is not available due to fault / theft Control: Hold a central spare that can be readily switched out for any of the four units you are responsible for
As Kate says still not a risk assessment - at best this is a decision tree aka .......
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Rank: Super forum user
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How does one become a guardian for a publicly accessible defibrilator. The only ones I know of are in a cabinet fixed to a wall and the 999 operator tells you where it is and the code to open the box. I had cause to use one last year, the instructions are inside the box and are verbally explained on swithcing the machine on. I called the phone number inside the box to let someone know it had been used and they thanked me because she said otherwise no one wold have told them. Does the Guardian have a routine of regular checks ?
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Rank: Super forum user
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There is a scheme called "The Circuit" which allows you to register your defibs. You have to include instructions about how the public can access them (such as asking at your reception desk) and what days and times is it available. You also have to confirm every three months that it has been checked (they send you a reminder).
The scheme then passes on the information about the nearest available defib when someone makes a 999 call.
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2 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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So much better if you can site the defibrillator, (in a secure exterior cabinet - cost about £650, grants available) where its available to the general public 24/7, and register it with the emergency services.
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2 users thanked Alan Haynes for this useful post.
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I worked recently, and for a short while at Screwfix, everyone of their branches now has a defibrillator that is 'available to the public' / Pulic Access The only instructions were that if someone rushed in and said they needed the defibrillator a member of staff went with them to make sure they weren't scamming/stealing it. and lets face it, all you have to do is be able to open the box, the machine then tells you everything and exactly what you have to do, or not do if the casualty doesn't need a shock
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Rank: Forum user
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The biggest thing I would personally say with public access defibs is make sure they are on your first aid checks. I have a strange habit of looking at defibs lying around community centres etc and I've lost count of the amount who's pads are out of date, missing or batteries flashing low. Hopefully you never need to use these things, but you want them to work when you need them! There was a recent inquest where a defib from a coop run public access defib went to be used on someone who had been electrocuted and found to have the pads missing so couldn't be used. Although it wouldnt have made any difference in the case - he was asytole - its really bad PR for the coop.
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1 user thanked Coyle07 for this useful post.
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Rank: Forum user
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Our (although not public access) is on our monthly first aid check to specifically check battery and pads. Its not under any risk assessment just the monthly check. As others have said the worst thing is to need it and it be faulty for some reason.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I think that the original question suffers from an all-too-common symptom: any and every document that involves H&S is a risk assessment. So something bad happens so a finger gets pointed to H&S and a risk assessment appears to save the day. This is not a risk assessment you are documenting a procedure. The risk assessment involves you deciding what might go wrong, how bad it might be, how likely is it that the bad thing might happen and what can YOU do about it. If you are not asking and getting answers for those questions, it’s not a risk assessment. During COVID employers were told to produce risk assessments despite there being no legal requirement to do so. The COSHH ACoP makes that clear. They were then told what to put in this pseudo assessment with no questions about hazards or likely outcomes and told what controls to apply. No wonder people are confused by risk assessment.
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2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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My partner is a First Aid instructor and I am a " Guardian" for defibrillator outside village hall. we occasionally give free, fun packed demos about this. You do not need to be first aid trained to use one, they tell you what to do. Its helpful if you know CPR, but not essential.
Yet we still have people who declare that they wont use it in case they get it wrong or electrocute themselves, its very depressing that so many places have them and invest considerable sums in their upkeep and maintenace , but there is still a lot of misunderstandings about them.
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2 users thanked nic168 for this useful post.
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: nic168 My partner is a First Aid instructor and I am a " Guardian" for defibrillator outside village hall. we occasionally give free, fun packed demos about this. You do not need to be first aid trained to use one, they tell you what to do. Its helpful if you know CPR, but not essential.
Yet we still have people who declare that they wont use it in case they get it wrong or electrocute themselves, its very depressing that so many places have them and invest considerable sums in their upkeep and maintenace , but there is still a lot of misunderstandings about them.
This is the case where I work currently. The perception is its for the first aiders only as they assume we have all had training to use them. I will have to do a boat load of training in the coming months and at one of them I will be tagging the defib on to reassure then that they are for anyone to use and a fairly idiot proof.
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: Coyle07 The biggest thing I would personally say with public access defibs is make sure they are on your first aid checks. I have a strange habit of looking at defibs lying around community centres etc and I've lost count of the amount who's pads are out of date, missing or batteries flashing low.Hopefully you never need to use these things, but you want them to work when you need them! There was a recent inquest where a defib from a coop run public access defib went to be used on someone who had been electrocuted and found to have the pads missing so couldn't be used. Although it wouldnt have made any difference in the case - he was asytole -its really bad PRfor the coop. Any link to this case? I’d love to know how any one knew his heart rhythm without any pads. Presumably the first responder / ambulance hadn’t arrived yet, as they bring their own defibs.
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: thunderchild Originally Posted by: nic168 My partner is a First Aid instructor and I am a " Guardian" for defibrillator outside village hall. we occasionally give free, fun packed demos about this. You do not need to be first aid trained to use one, they tell you what to do. Its helpful if you know CPR, but not essential. Yet we still have people who declare that they wont use it in case they get it wrong or electrocute themselves, its very depressing that so many places have them and invest considerable sums in their upkeep and maintenace , but there is still a lot of misunderstandings about them. This is the case where I work currently. The perception is its for the first aiders only as they assume we have all had training to use them.I will have to do a boat load of training in the coming months and at one of them I will be tagging the defib on to reassure then that they are for anyone to use and a fairly idiot proof. This is a correct presumption though, I presume? All first aiders should’ve been trained in the use of a defib. Even though an AED can be used by absolutely anyone, it’s relatively unrealistic to expect staff with zero training to go and use a defib. Not to state the obvious - but with zero training how would staff know when to use a defib? Even nurses and doctors get very nervous and overwhelmed when expected to use a defib ion a real emergency that they have never received any training on, as they are all slightly different. To expect a lay person to use them with not a seconds training is unrealistic.
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Rank: New forum user
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Originally Posted by: SLord80 Originally Posted by: Coyle07 The biggest thing I would personally say with public access defibs is make sure they are on your first aid checks. I have a strange habit of looking at defibs lying around community centres etc and I've lost count of the amount who's pads are out of date, missing or batteries flashing low.Hopefully you never need to use these things, but you want them to work when you need them! There was a recent inquest where a defib from a coop run public access defib went to be used on someone who had been electrocuted and found to have the pads missing so couldn't be used. Although it wouldnt have made any difference in the case - he was asytole -its really bad PRfor the coop.
Any link to this case? I’d love to know how any one knew his heart rhythm without any pads. Presumably the first responder / ambulance hadn’t arrived yet, as they bring their own defibs.
this is the coroner's report for the incident https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Mackenzie-Cooper-Prevention-of-future-deaths-report-2023-0431_Published.pdf
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Rank: Super forum user
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Who ever is in control of the defib has to, if it's publicaly available conduct monthly checks and register on a database to say they have been done. So the tamper proof seal isn't going to work unless you change it every month. As for it not working, as part of the checks you check the LED on the unit, you check the date on the battery, date on the pads. Most outside boxes will have a small heating element inside to stop the defib from freezing.
So as someone who completes the monthly checks, just follow the check routing you are already conducting and that should be sufficient.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: SLord80 Originally Posted by: thunderchild Originally Posted by: nic168 My partner is a First Aid instructor and I am a " Guardian" for defibrillator outside village hall. we occasionally give free, fun packed demos about this. You do not need to be first aid trained to use one, they tell you what to do. Its helpful if you know CPR, but not essential.
Yet we still have people who declare that they wont use it in case they get it wrong or electrocute themselves, its very depressing that so many places have them and invest considerable sums in their upkeep and maintenace , but there is still a lot of misunderstandings about them.
This is the case where I work currently. The perception is its for the first aiders only as they assume we have all had training to use them.I will have to do a boat load of training in the coming months and at one of them I will be tagging the defib on to reassure then that they are for anyone to use and a fairly idiot proof.
This is a correct presumption though, I presume? All first aiders should’ve been trained in the use of a defib.
Even though an AED can be used by absolutely anyone, it’s relatively unrealistic to expect staff with zero training to go and use a defib. Not to state the obvious - but with zero training how would staff know when to use a defib?
Even nurses and doctors get very nervous and overwhelmed when expected to use a defib ion a real emergency that they have never received any training on, as they are all slightly different. To expect a lay person to use them with not a seconds training is unrealistic.
Teaching defib on a first aid course has been mandatory for a few years now. But when you turn a defib on it gives verbal instructions on what to do. There are also pictograms in the back of the unit. The hardest part is knowing where to fit the pads. But there is a diagram for that Plus it won't allow you to shock unless the person is in the correct heart rythym.
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: Mirin Originally Posted by: SLord80 Originally Posted by: Coyle07 <img src="/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif" title="Go to Quoted Post" alt="Go to Quoted Post">The biggest thing I would personally say with public access defibs is make sure they are on your first aid checks. I have a strange habit of looking at defibs lying around community centres etc and I've lost count of the amount who's pads are out of date, missing or batteries flashing low.Hopefully you never need to use these things, but you want them to work when you need them! There was a recent inquest where a defib from a coop run public access defib went to be used on someone who had been electrocuted and found to have the pads missing so couldn't be used. Although it wouldnt have made any difference in the case - he was asytole -its really bad PRfor the coop. Any link to this case? I’d love to know how any one knew his heart rhythm without any pads. Presumably the first responder / ambulance hadn’t arrived yet, as they bring their own defibs. this is the coroner's report for the incident https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Mackenzie-Cooper-Prevention-of-future-deaths-report-2023-0431_Published.pdf Thanks for the link. Interesting case. Wildly inaccurate to state it wouldn’t have made any difference due to him being asytole when the ambulance arrived - he was always going to be after a 20 minute delay. He could’ve been in VF when the community AED arrived though, a real shame.
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