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Sarah Yates  
#1 Posted : 08 February 2024 11:17:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Sarah Yates

We ghave just become the guardian for a public access defibrelator. Do I need to do a risk asseseement for this?

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 08 February 2024 12:01:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Why do you perceive a need for a Risk Assessment? If it is "public access" then getting to the equipment is normally by some form of code provided in response to a telephone call.

As the guardians you would require some form of documented arrangements for the business to follow e.g. how do the public gain access the device, who checks the condition / arranges repair or replacement?

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 08 February 2024 12:01:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Why do you perceive a need for a Risk Assessment? If it is "public access" then getting to the equipment is normally by some form of code provided in response to a telephone call.

As the guardians you would require some form of documented arrangements for the business to follow e.g. how do the public gain access the device, who checks the condition / arranges repair or replacement?

RichardPerry1066  
#4 Posted : 09 February 2024 15:27:28(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RichardPerry1066

I think it would be sensible but it will be relatively straighforward. And having advised you to do this I'm going to write one up for the 4 publicly accessible defibs that I'm responsible for!

Problem:

Defibrillator is not accessible when required

Control

  1. It's in a cabinet in reception area (or wherever it is) Tamper proof seal on cabinet shows whether the cabinet has been opened.
  2. receptionist checks every day that it is present and that tamper proof seal is not broken

Problem

Defibrillator doesn't work when needed

Control

  1. Battery display is checked monthly - battery replaced if battery shows less than 100% or within 3 months of expiry date.
  2. Pad expiry date recorded - pads replaced if within 3 months of expiry date
  3. Contents checked if tamper proof seal is broken
    1.  Defib unit
    2.  Adult and Paediatric pads 
    3. Sealed starter kit
  4. Defibrillator logged on "The circuit"
  5. Self test record checked monthly

Problem

Staff don't know how to use defibrillator

Control

  1. All staff shown where the defibrillator is and given permission to allow any person to access it if needed
  2. Staff have been given a "toolbox talk" on how to use it
  3. Instruction card prominently displayed inside the Cabinet

 I used "Problem" and not "hazard" or "risk" - that's because I get a bit scratchy about safety pedants who will argue for days about the difference between a risk and a hazard when actually what we're talking about is "whats the problem". 

Obviously what you do won't be exactly the same as that but I don't think it will be far different

Kate  
#5 Posted : 09 February 2024 16:57:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Well, pedantically, as you say, I don't think that is a risk assessment.  It is a description of how the defib can be correctly used when required.

thanks 2 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 09/02/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 21/02/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 09 February 2024 20:19:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: RichardPerry1066 Go to Quoted Post
I think it would be sensible but it will be relatively straighforward. And having advised you to do this I'm going to write one up for the 4 publicly accessible defibs that I'm responsible for!

Problem: Defibrillator at one location is not available due to fault / theft

Control: Hold a central spare that can be readily switched out for any of the four units you are responsible for

As Kate says still not a risk assessment - at best this is a decision tree aka .......

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 09 February 2024 20:19:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: RichardPerry1066 Go to Quoted Post
I think it would be sensible but it will be relatively straighforward. And having advised you to do this I'm going to write one up for the 4 publicly accessible defibs that I'm responsible for!

Problem: Defibrillator at one location is not available due to fault / theft

Control: Hold a central spare that can be readily switched out for any of the four units you are responsible for

As Kate says still not a risk assessment - at best this is a decision tree aka .......

firesafety101  
#8 Posted : 10 February 2024 16:15:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

How does one become a guardian for a publicly accessible defibrilator.  The only ones I know of are in a cabinet fixed to a wall and the 999 operator tells you where it is and the code to open the box.

I had cause to use one last year, the instructions are inside the box and are verbally explained on swithcing the machine on.  I called the phone number inside the box to let someone know it had been used and they thanked me because she said otherwise no one wold have told them.

Does the Guardian have a routine of regular checks ?

Kate  
#9 Posted : 10 February 2024 17:57:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

There is a scheme called "The Circuit" which allows you to register your defibs.  You have to include instructions about how the public can access them (such as asking at your reception desk) and what days and times is it available.  You also have to confirm every three months that it has been checked (they send you a reminder).

The scheme then passes on the information about the nearest available defib when someone makes a 999 call.

thanks 2 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
peter gotch on 11/02/2024(UTC), nic168 on 21/02/2024(UTC)
Alan Haynes  
#10 Posted : 10 February 2024 19:12:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

So much better if you can site the defibrillator, (in a secure exterior cabinet - cost about £650, grants available) where its available to the general public 24/7, and register it with the emergency services.
thanks 2 users thanked Alan Haynes for this useful post.
Kate on 11/02/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 11/02/2024(UTC)
Pirellipete  
#11 Posted : 11 February 2024 16:25:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Pirellipete

I worked recently, and for a short while at Screwfix, everyone of their branches now has a defibrillator that is 'available to the public' / Pulic Access

The only instructions were that if someone rushed in and said they needed the defibrillator a member of staff went with them to make sure they weren't scamming/stealing it.

and lets face it, all you have to do is be able to open the box, the machine then tells you everything and exactly what you have to do, or not do if the casualty doesn't need a shock

Coyle07  
#12 Posted : 21 February 2024 09:24:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Coyle07

The biggest thing I would personally say with public access defibs is make sure they are on your first aid checks.  I have a strange habit of looking at defibs lying around community centres etc and I've lost count of the amount who's pads are out of date, missing or batteries flashing low.  

Hopefully you never need to use these things, but you want them to work when you need them!  There was a recent inquest where a defib from a coop run public access defib went to be used on someone who had been electrocuted and found to have the pads missing so couldn't be used.  Although it wouldnt have made any difference in the case - he was asytole - its really bad PR for the coop.

thanks 1 user thanked Coyle07 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 21/02/2024(UTC)
thunderchild  
#13 Posted : 21 February 2024 14:51:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Our (although not public access) is on our monthly first aid check to specifically check battery and pads.

Its not under any risk assessment just the monthly check. As others have said the worst thing is to need it and it be faulty for some reason.

A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 21 February 2024 15:14:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I think that the original question suffers from an all-too-common symptom: any and every document that involves H&S is a risk assessment. So something bad happens so a finger gets pointed to H&S and a risk assessment  appears to save the day.   This is not a risk assessment  you are documenting a procedure. The risk assessment involves you deciding what might go wrong, how bad it  might be, how likely is it that the bad thing might happen and  what can YOU do about it. If you are not asking and getting answers for those questions, it’s not a risk assessment.

During COVID employers were told to produce risk assessments despite there being no legal requirement to do so. The COSHH ACoP makes that clear.  They were then told what to put in this pseudo assessment with no  questions about hazards or likely outcomes and told what controls to apply.  No wonder people are confused by risk assessment.

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Kate on 21/02/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 21/02/2024(UTC)
nic168  
#15 Posted : 21 February 2024 16:34:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
nic168

 My partner is a First Aid instructor and I am a " Guardian" for defibrillator outside village hall.  we occasionally give free, fun packed demos about this. You do not need to be first aid trained to use one, they tell you what to do. Its helpful if you know CPR, but not essential.

 Yet we still have people who declare that they wont use it in case they get it wrong or electrocute themselves, its very depressing that so many places have them and invest considerable sums in their upkeep and maintenace , but there is still a lot of misunderstandings about them.

thanks 2 users thanked nic168 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 21/02/2024(UTC), FHS on 21/02/2024(UTC)
thunderchild  
#16 Posted : 22 February 2024 14:22:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Originally Posted by: nic168 Go to Quoted Post

 My partner is a First Aid instructor and I am a " Guardian" for defibrillator outside village hall.  we occasionally give free, fun packed demos about this. You do not need to be first aid trained to use one, they tell you what to do. Its helpful if you know CPR, but not essential.

 Yet we still have people who declare that they wont use it in case they get it wrong or electrocute themselves, its very depressing that so many places have them and invest considerable sums in their upkeep and maintenace , but there is still a lot of misunderstandings about them.

This is the case where I work currently. The perception is its for the first aiders only as they assume we have all had training to use them. 

I will have to do a boat load of training in the coming months and at one of them I will be tagging the defib on to reassure then that they are for anyone to use and a fairly idiot proof.

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