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Roundtuit  
#1 Posted : 29 October 2024 14:37:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Might get a tailored response if you were clear on what "awareness" courses you are seeking.

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 29 October 2024 14:37:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Might get a tailored response if you were clear on what "awareness" courses you are seeking.

MHT  
#3 Posted : 29 October 2024 14:59:47(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MHT

Hi Shaun,

I might be able to help you through my online training portal. It's a comprehensive suite of E-Learning that covers most industries.

I can set up a business account for you to manage and allocate training courses to your teams. 

Have a look and let me know if this is what you are looking for?

Michelle (michellehay.com)

Michelle Hay Training Limited

thanks 1 user thanked MHT for this useful post.
ShaunBaker91 on 29/10/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 29 October 2024 16:26:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: ShaunBaker91 Go to Quoted Post
There you go, I was wanting to avoid adding a big list but hey ho canny appease them all 

Given how big your list is probably a very fair question given the spread of subjects you are wanting to cover.

Blunderbuss & Barn Door springs to mind.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 29/10/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 29/10/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 29 October 2024 16:26:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: ShaunBaker91 Go to Quoted Post
There you go, I was wanting to avoid adding a big list but hey ho canny appease them all 

Given how big your list is probably a very fair question given the spread of subjects you are wanting to cover.

Blunderbuss & Barn Door springs to mind.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 29/10/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 29/10/2024(UTC)
MHT  
#6 Posted : 29 October 2024 16:31:21(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MHT

Hi Shaun,

I have all those courses available and would be pleased to help. I've sent you a private message. 

Michelle

peter gotch  
#7 Posted : 29 October 2024 16:39:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Shaun

Perhaps you should also think about which of these topics might be suited to online training and which might be better done by other methods.

AND what duration each should take?

So, you could have a relatively short online "course" on use of stepladders, but do you really think that "CDM Awareness" could be covered in an hour or less?

What is your objective - to tick some boxes or to actually be confident that the training meets your organisation's needs.

Plenty offering online training in almost anything these days. But what happens when one of your delegates wants to ask a question and the trainer either doesn't answer (perhaps because the training platform isn't set up for a dialogue) or the trainer either hasn't a clue or tries to make it up as they go along?

I made this mistake iin the early days of CDM, though NOT online training. We wanted a trainer to deliver a 3 day course to set up some relatively senior staff to spearhead the delivery of our CDM, then "Planning Supervisor" services. So, I went out to market.

Made it quite clear that we would make the choice on the basis of quality over price and also that I wanted at least 60% of the programme to be case study work. Found a well know consultancy specialising in Construction and a trainer ex HSE. Seemed good as did the proposed programme.

But the delegate feedback to me was far too consistent for my liking. "Peter, every time we asked them a question, they sais they hadn't come across 'that scenario' before". All the scenarios mentioned were entirely predictable questions, most of which I had already dealt with on projects. So do you need a trainer with the knowledge and experience to field your delegates' questions competently?

Finally, a caveat. Whoever you think of choosing, do your due diligence. Would you think that a sole trader is likely to be a sustainable provider going forward, or a high risk choice?

Almost anyone could set up a training business and many are doing so from an office at home. Will they (a) be competent to meet your needs and (b) still be in business in 5 years time?

peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 29 October 2024 17:05:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Shaun

Still unconvinced.

Suppose you put someone through face to face Risk Assessment training that lasts half a day or more.

What is then important is that the training be put into practice and that the risk assessment process is subject to review by someone competent to decide whether the documentation is worth the paper (or electronic equivalent) it is written on.

So, what would be the point in then putting someone through 15-30 minutes of online "refresher" training perhaps with a test at the end in which someone has to get at least 7 out of 10 multiple choice questions right. If the "correct" answers to those questions are actually sound, most delegates should be able to pass without wasting time watching the slides.

Similarly, CDM - you might have people to whom any or even all of the CDM duty holder functions are delegated. What matters is what they do on CDM projects, not how well they do with the limittations of some short online "training" course. They have either taken on MOST of what they were supposed to learn during face to face training AND then reinforced that on the job, or they haven't. A short online "refresher" is not going to solve your problems if they didn't absorb the original training. All it is likely to do is give you a false sense of security. Next step after that is potential enforcement action or you fail some external audit.

Kate  
#9 Posted : 30 October 2024 05:51:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I tend to agree with Peter here.  Awareness courses are just a very basic introduction to a subject, and not suitable as refresher courses.  Ideally, a refresher has at least some element of looking back at how the learning from the original training has been applied in practice, and can explore questions that have been raised through these experiences. 

However short and cheap an online awareness session is, as a refresher it is a complete waste of time and money.

I've seen people being forced to repeat the same awareness training every year.  It didn't make them more aware, it just made them disgruntled, because they found it boring, pointless and disrespectful of their skills.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
ShaunBaker91 on 01/11/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 30 October 2024 10:24:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

So in your long list of tick box awareness you seem to have omitted operating tools, driving, witten English, computers, mathematics and many other aspects which will have been conducted through historical test or examination.

This is what I find infuriating about those who pursue "competency" by ticking the boxes in a perpetual tread mill of sit the course, do the questionnaire - just like the tick box auditor they never see beyond the page and repeat the same trodden path for no additional business benefit.

A very pertinent example is the Road Traffic Act with recent changes in the priority of road users - did you arrange awareness training for all those who undertook their driving test many years ago to address gaps in their knowledge? I know my employer didn't but they do have a record of when my licence was issued.

Education is always about how we used to do things, our problem is we live in today not in the past.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 30/10/2024(UTC), Kate on 30/10/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 30 October 2024 10:24:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

So in your long list of tick box awareness you seem to have omitted operating tools, driving, witten English, computers, mathematics and many other aspects which will have been conducted through historical test or examination.

This is what I find infuriating about those who pursue "competency" by ticking the boxes in a perpetual tread mill of sit the course, do the questionnaire - just like the tick box auditor they never see beyond the page and repeat the same trodden path for no additional business benefit.

A very pertinent example is the Road Traffic Act with recent changes in the priority of road users - did you arrange awareness training for all those who undertook their driving test many years ago to address gaps in their knowledge? I know my employer didn't but they do have a record of when my licence was issued.

Education is always about how we used to do things, our problem is we live in today not in the past.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 30/10/2024(UTC), Kate on 30/10/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 30 October 2024 11:55:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sorry I was under the impression this was a "discussion" forum with rules about conduct and behaviour.

Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 30 October 2024 11:55:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sorry I was under the impression this was a "discussion" forum with rules about conduct and behaviour.

peter gotch  
#14 Posted : 30 October 2024 13:03:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Shaun, I suggest you get off your high horse.

If you were to check I think you would find that Roundtuit is amongst the top five users on these Forums in terms of both "thanks" and "thanks" as a proportion of all their postings.

So, you ignore their advice at YOUR peril.

Fair enough - you want to buy online training that some highly experienced OSH professionals here think might be a waste of time and money. Your choice. Whether those footing the bill will be impressed depends on how competent they are - there are plenty of incompetent managers around.

Mirin  
#15 Posted : 30 October 2024 17:50:36(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Mirin

Peter and Shaun

I wonder if Shaun is frustrated rather than on a high horse. Users on many sites request what they perceive as straightforward requests for specific information . Often their requests are not answered in the way they anticipated leading to frustration ( I speak from personal experience on other sites)  I have read the replies and recognise  the clear depth of knowledge and concern by the responders. The difficulty as Shaun suggests is that we really do not know his organisation and the levels of training provided in detail. 

regards and respect to all

Mirin

thanks 3 users thanked Mirin for this useful post.
Kate on 30/10/2024(UTC), chris42 on 31/10/2024(UTC), ShaunBaker91 on 31/10/2024(UTC)
ShaunBaker91  
#16 Posted : 31 October 2024 10:04:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ShaunBaker91

Originally Posted by: Mirin Go to Quoted Post

Peter and Shaun

I wonder if Shaun is frustrated rather than on a high horse. Users on many sites request what they perceive as straightforward requests for specific information . Often their requests are not answered in the way they anticipated leading to frustration ( I speak from personal experience on other sites)  I have read the replies and recognise  the clear depth of knowledge and concern by the responders. The difficulty as Shaun suggests is that we really do not know his organisation and the levels of training provided in detail. 

regards and respect to all

Mirin

Yes, it is an irritation when people come onto discussions to critque the content of a question and give no inclination of any kind that they are attempting to answer a question.

More so that it feels as though this forum seems to become more and more like facebook every time I come on

thanks 1 user thanked ShaunBaker91 for this useful post.
Martin Fieldingt on 31/10/2024(UTC)
peter gotch  
#17 Posted : 31 October 2024 11:19:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Thanks Mirin for your diplomacy.

However, this entire thread is now redundant given that Shaun has removed both his original question (as later amended, at the time probably in an attempt to reflect an entirely reasonable comment from Roundtuit),and all his inputs other than the latest (i.e. that posted after your comment).

In the original question Shaun indicated that what his current provider, IHasco, was providing was not really doing it for his organisation. Not clear whether that was a matter of quality, price, both or something else and he asked for comments on alternatives.

The original post with question was amended following Roundtuit's intenvention to add a long wish list of topics to be delivered by online training. 

At a later point in the thread Shaun sprang a complete surprise - this was NOT training at all as that is donce face to face but rather some form of refresh between iniital face to face training and a refresher using the same mode of delivery. 

All signs that the initial question had been poorly scoped.

An indication that Shaun might be well advised to go back to the proverbial drawing board and think about what he thinks he needs, why he needs it and then think about how to scope his potential contract specification IF he wants Value for Money.

achrn  
#18 Posted : 31 October 2024 16:12:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post

I've seen people being forced to repeat the same awareness training every year.  It didn't make them more aware, it just made them disgruntled, because they found it boring, pointless and disrespectful of their skills.

Yep - heard it all before, and didn't much enjoy it last time.

On the other hand, I also agree with Shaun:

Originally Posted by: ShaunBaker91 Go to Quoted Post

Yes, it is an irritation when people come onto discussions to critque the content of a question and give no inclination of any kind that they are attempting to answer a question.

It does seem to me that some regulars are too quick to see incompetence (or even malice) in the questions, especuially when the person posting the question is new (or newish) to the forum.  Makes me think aren't you lucky people didn't treat you like that back before you knew everything.

If I have a question for the forum, I have to summrise and abbreviate and omit about 98% of the context, because if I explain it all it will take me three days to write out the question and you lot then wouldn't read a post that long anyway (well I wouldn't).  Even then you won't know everything about my business - I've only been in it 34 full-time years so far and don't know all of it yet.

So far in this thread Shaun asked a (reasonable in my mind) question about possible alternative e-learning providers, and basically told he's a expletive idiot for thinking e-learning is worth the paper it's written on.  It then transpires that he doesn't rely solely on e-learning, but that was also spun to be a failing on Shaun's part.  There is an aside discussiona bout whether 'awareness' tyraining is suitable as 'refresher' training, and even that generated more heat than shed light.

FWIW, we do use e-learning, for some awareness courses and refresher courses (but I won't tell you which for fear that someone will assume omission from the list means we don't do any training at all on that topic and I should be lambasted for my obvious failings).  I am broadly satisfied with our provider's content, but I know our L&D people find managing their system hard work, so I'm not going to recommend them.

(I should say, I don't know Shaun from Adam - he might be a really horrible person for all I know, but give the guy a break.)

And all that's before we even get to the blanket accusation made to all new posters that they are an AI and/or preparing to spam the forum with inappropriate links.  Yes some people are, but that's not a reason to assume malice in everyone.

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
ShaunBaker91 on 01/11/2024(UTC)
Kate  
#19 Posted : 31 October 2024 16:50:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I don't think Shaun's an idiot, I don't think he has failed, and I do think he is a real person.

I also see how it is annoying to ask a factual question (what providers do such a thing) and instead of getting factual answers (providers X and Y and Z) see the premise of the question being challenged.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
ShaunBaker91 on 01/11/2024(UTC)
ShaunBaker91  
#20 Posted : 01 November 2024 12:28:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ShaunBaker91

No, Peter, Shaun removed the question as he got private messages that gave actual answers.

Unfortunately its all too evident that certain people kind of group together in these situations as shown from previous postings.

No I do not know everything, I do know that I am more than qualified to do what I do and am working with a company who have specifically requested the use of online training as a gap bridge. Yes, I have also spoken to them in regard to the pro's and con's and have come to the decision that that is what they want. As I had previously stated the company have a competency based assessment and it works.

thanks 1 user thanked ShaunBaker91 for this useful post.
Kate on 01/11/2024(UTC)
ShaunBaker91  
#21 Posted : 01 November 2024 12:39:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ShaunBaker91

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

Thanks Mirin for your diplomacy.

However, this entire thread is now redundant given that Shaun has removed both his original question (as later amended, at the time probably in an attempt to reflect an entirely reasonable comment from Roundtuit),and all his inputs other than the latest (i.e. that posted after your comment).

In the original question Shaun indicated that what his current provider, IHasco, was providing was not really doing it for his organisation. Not clear whether that was a matter of quality, price, both or something else and he asked for comments on alternatives.

The original post with question was amended following Roundtuit's intenvention to add a long wish list of topics to be delivered by online training. 

At a later point in the thread Shaun sprang a complete surprise - this was NOT training at all as that is donce face to face but rather some form of refresh between iniital face to face training and a refresher using the same mode of delivery. 

All signs that the initial question had been poorly scoped.

An indication that Shaun might be well advised to go back to the proverbial drawing board and think about what he thinks he needs, why he needs it and then think about how to scope his potential contract specification IF he wants Value for Money.

No. I did not spring a surprise, I asked for general providers of online awareness training. 1 element of our training delivery. I then got belittled by you and Rounduit and made to feel 2 inch tall over ONE aspect of our training delivery. I then EXPLAINED that we do Face to Face interactive training courses and use online training as a gap fill / memory jog, to then come back onto the forum to yet more pointless comments.

Everyone else who has provided relevant information and those who have come on to this thread to comment in regards to poor comment, I thank you and will touch base with those who have provided contact details.

Edited by user 01 November 2024 12:41:05(UTC)  | Reason: Misplacement

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