It's worth noting that if you are buying masks you should be very careful at the moment. My company is buying a stock just in case they are required as part of the back to work procedure, and we have been offered two batches by our suppliers both when I looked into them had very suspect paperwork that looked fantastic but on closer inspection was fraudulant or worthless.

My personal feeling is that it would be very difficult for the government to enforce and stipulating that employees had to wear masks before returning would be very difficult for them when they are struggling to get enough for the NHS. Additionally having seen people using masks in the supermarket and at work it appears that they not used correctly and spend most of their time hanging around people's necks. 

Edited by user 26 April 2020 20:35:02(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

Now Nicola Sturgeon has jumped on the face covering band waggon

Does this mean banks will relax their security concerns?

Edited by user 28 April 2020 14:12:09(UTC)  | Reason: bank security

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit

Paul911 (and others) Covid-19 has NOT re-written the rules regarding the heirarchy of control which remains UNCHANGED = PPE is the last resort of any sensible employer resting just above discipline.

We are meant to try everything else in response to an assessment deploying PPE as a last desperate measure.

In the supermarket today I heard the checkout operator explain to the supervisor that she was on the till rather than the customer service desk as her colleague has "claustraphobia" issues behind the recently installed screens.

This is exactly what i have been arguing about with the company I work for for the last few days who decided against my advice and have ordered stocks of face masks just incase and have said something is better then nothing. After plenty of arguements from myself about the masks are designed to protect others and not the user, that masks open more issues with increased contact with the face and that the hierarchy of control should be followed before even considering the use of masks this has been completley disregarded.

The best part was one of the directors stating that the "media hasnt said that we shouldnt use masks and everyone on TV is wearing masks of some kind and no government offical has said we should or shouldnt"...... My response only Public Health England, WHO, Europeon Disease control, HSE directing to public health england and the Construction Leadership Council have stated that face masks shouldnt be used unless all other measures have been taken and implemented

Slowly giving up

Don't give up, get even.

When the masks arrive go to town verifying that they are:

1) CE marked

2) Tested by an EU Notified Body (there should be a number in the CE label)

3) That the Notified Body is considered competent by the EU to test such devices

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/mechanical-engineering/personal-protective-equipment_en

So many dodgy masks appearing thanks to the global shortage anywhere between next to useless and useless

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52619138

BSI are warning visors made from a single sheet of A4 "OHP" acetate do not offer suitable protection - the materials may be readily available but do not satisfy the coverage requirements of the harmonised standard.

Similarly those cut from PP bottles will not derive sufficient coverage.

The politicians have not recommended masks, they have recommended home-made cloth face coverings and have published instructions on how to make one out of a T-shirt.

I believe the term is Gaslighting - that uncomfortable feeling when you were sure of something only for the person providing the information to say the exact opposite as though that had been the message all along.

So lets digest recent events - where social distancing is not practicable we are being recommended by the various governments (not Welsh) to wear face coverings. Now when we are in the classroom or at a child minders with a mixture of children and adults (at work) the UK government says they should not wear face coverings "because they are not effective"?

We are going to need a hell of a lot of therapists in the coming months.

Edited by user 12 May 2020 19:47:43(UTC)  | Reason: clarification of who is gaslighting

Originally Posted by: Kate

The politicians have not recommended masks, they have recommended home-made cloth face coverings and have published instructions on how to make one out of a T-shirt.

I should have tried that argument when going into the bank - it's not a mask, it's just a face covering.

What's more amusing (or not) is the situation in France - it's mandatory to wear a face covering on public transport, unless it's a niqab, which remains illegal. That's a real mixed message.

Shreddies (other brands are available) claim to resolve the odour issue you describe due to its "unique filtering fabric", as to the effectivness of underwear against transmission of Covid-19 this is subject to debate in Australia

Face coverings (and indeed medical masks) started as being intended to protect others from your own lung droplets which may be contaminated (unknowingly). They are of limited use in protecting the wearer from inhaling virus from others, although some evidence exists that suggests there may be a benefit. 

So I have some support of the principle of face coverings as a social courtesy to others in intense public situations. Not yet concerned enough to think about wearing one myself but social norming may change that.

Obviously if forced close to a spitty, dribly, yawny person, such a face covering can also provide some protection from their droplets which in theory do not emit further than a metre, or up to two metres for energetic sneezy, coughy output.

These face coverings, just like masks, will theoretically be 'contaminated' after each wear, and so must be handled minimally - not pulled up, or under the chin, unhooked to dangle etc. which of course everyone does. Then removed with care, avoiding external to face contact, put straight into a washing machine or container for retention until washing. Hand washing or at least sanitiser to follow. Which nobody does.

Of course 'close-up' exposures should be limited. So do you wear a face covering ALL day or just put one on (handily scrunched around neck?) when J 'Dribbly' Bloggs gets close for team lifting a lintel into place, or when you get on a bus? Hmm. Or do you always wear (a clean) one all day out of social consideration?

In use, the benefits seem likely be outweighed by additional hand/face contamination as I doubt a thorough routine would be practical even if understood. So I don't yet bother. But I might if I had to work with a splutterer, or use busy public transport. More evidence is coming out around aerosol transmission hence the German distancing variation advice up to 10m for cyclists. Be afraid!

I wondered what people are now doing, particularly in London, where staff may be starting to go back, for their own journeys to and from work on public transport it is their choice to wear a face mask or not, but when we are asking them to travel for business purposes on public transport what are companies recommending. I understand that face masks against coronavirus are not seen as PPE, which then leaves a very grey area in terms of what the employer should provide? Any thoughts or plans?

Edited by user 15 May 2020 13:40:43(UTC)  | Reason: typo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52933840

apparently being offered free face coverings by TFL ahead of the English mandate to wear from 15th June

https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---5-june-2020

and the hokey-kokey continues as WHO revises mask guidance.....

your non-medical face covering should be three different layers

if youare 60 years or older you should wear a medical mask

It is an absolute shambles.

Interesting thing about the downgrade is that the original SARS is still classed as a HCID (High consequence infectious disease) but COVID-19 is not (despite it being the result of COR-SARS-2).

Seems a little off.

The updated WHO guidance:

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

Railway workers in stations are being told to wear either a face mask or a visor, and not a home-made face covering.  I find no definition as yet of what is meant by mask in this instruction.

Hi,

After alerting my company to the KN95 face mask issue (following the recent HSE alert), I was made aware that we had in fact had a recent delivery of said masks! They were purchased for the sole use of protection of/against C-19, but I wonder if they could be used in place of a face covering for use on public transport or where staff may need to work in close proximity etc? They surely can't be any worse than a home made face coverng as depicted on the .Gov website?

Any thoughts would be most welcome

Many thanks

As they are counterfeit either destroy them or have trading standards collect them - the alert clearly states that HSE is ensuring such masks are removed from the supply chain not donated for other use.

PPE falls under CE marking market surveillance regulations - give them to anyone and you will be considered to be a supplier to market.

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/mechanical-engineering/personal-protective-equipment_en

...to be pedantic where does it say that..the HSE are ensuring such masks are removed from the supply chain?...make sure you don't take it out of context here this applies as workplace PPE...

The alert says - 

KN95 must not be used as PPE at work as their effectiveness cannot be assured.

Masks that are not CE marked and cannot be shown to be compliant must be removed from supply immediately. If these masks have not been through the necessary safety assessments, their effectiveness in controlling risks to health cannot be assured for anyone buying or using them. They are unlikely to provide the protection expected or required.

Originally Posted by: craigroberts76

And yet the N95 masks were being sold by large distributers a few weeks ago for £95+vat for 20.  I'm in the mind that if they are to be used for public transport etc "outside" of working hours, then that has to a) be a better and environmentally better than binning b) these have to be better than a scalf, t'shirt or thong as recommended by government agencies. 

For reference, N95 are different to KN95.  N95 is the US standard that was agreed to be an equivalent of FFP2 and approved for use in healthcare if required.

Originally Posted by: stevedm

where does it say that..the HSE are ensuring such masks are removed from the supply chain?

https://press.hse.gov.uk/2020/06/11/hse-safety-alert-issued-against-kn95-facemask/?utm_source=hse.gov.uk&utm_medium=refferal&utm_campaign=kn95-safety-alert&utm_term=press-channels-push&utm_content=news-page%22

HSE is working to remove them from the supply chain with colleagues in the Office for Product Safety and Standards (OPSS), Border Force, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and Trading Standards to identify manufacturers and suppliers of these masks and prevent them entering the UK.

still not what the alert said...all of this is in the context of workplace PPE...not face covering which was what the original quetion was....