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ncann88  
#1 Posted : 03 May 2022 08:56:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ncann88

Good morning all, 

I work in the outdooor education sector. We are often asked for risk assessments to be provided to visiting schools, groups, companies etc. Talking to a fellow provider at the weekend, and their H&S Advisor has said they shouldn't do this and provide the following reasoning. 

If we provide you a copy of our risk assessment for x and you don't spot ssomething we may have missed, you are eequally culpable' 

I'm not entirely convinced by this.....does anyone have an opinion or eveidence suggesting this could be the case or not? 

Thanks

Nick 

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 03 May 2022 09:18:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The legal duty to provide risk assessment is with the  employer so the business should be identifying the best person to produce the risk assessment and deciding whether it is ‘suitable and sufficient’.

So criminal culpability  is not an issue as to civil liability, you would probably only get sued if the risk assessment was very negligent.  Consultants’ bread and butter is providing  risk assessments for clients who unable(or too lazy) to provide their, but they will add disclaimers making it clear that the risk assessment is based on what the client told them, so the responsibility remains with the  business. People often copy each others risk assessments and then use in situations which they might be inappropriate and that is why simply sharing a risk assessment is not a good idea.  

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
ncann88 on 05/05/2022(UTC)
achrn  
#3 Posted : 03 May 2022 09:39:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: ncann88 Go to Quoted Post

I work in the outdooor education sector. We are often asked for risk assessments to be provided to visiting schools, groups, companies etc. Talking to a fellow provider at the weekend, and their H&S Advisor has said they shouldn't do this and provide the following reasoning. 

Sorry, can you clarify the situation you are talking about: I think you are saying you work in outdoor education, and groups that visit you to avail themselves of your services ask to see your risk assessments for said services.  Seems reasonable to me. 

In essence, the 'fellow provider' is proposing that you should refuse to show the risk assessments for your site and activities to client organisations using your services?

To be honest, if I was your client, I was sending a group of people to your site for some activity, and you refused me sight of any risk assessments (on the grounds, basically, of 'trust me, I'm a pro'), I'd be finding a different provider.

Edited by user 03 May 2022 15:36:31(UTC)  | Reason: spilling

thanks 7 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
peter gotch on 03/05/2022(UTC), johnc on 03/05/2022(UTC), ncann88 on 05/05/2022(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 06/05/2022(UTC), andrewhopwood on 11/05/2022(UTC), wjp62 on 11/05/2022(UTC), lorna on 13/05/2022(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 03 May 2022 15:48:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I would ask for a copy of their Risk Assessment to see how it dovetails with yours after all whilst they may be availing themselves of your services they are the ones bringing the external unknown risk i.e. the particpants.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
ncann88 on 05/05/2022(UTC), ncann88 on 05/05/2022(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 03 May 2022 15:48:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I would ask for a copy of their Risk Assessment to see how it dovetails with yours after all whilst they may be availing themselves of your services they are the ones bringing the external unknown risk i.e. the particpants.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
ncann88 on 05/05/2022(UTC), ncann88 on 05/05/2022(UTC)
peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 03 May 2022 16:21:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Could look at it a different way.

The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 doesn't require the communication of the risk assessment (to employees) but information about the significant factors that are identified and thence the precautions to be taken.

This is essentially putting some meat on the bones of Section 2(2)(c) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 requring the provision of such information etc as is reasonably practicable.

Given that the five parts of Section 2(2) are generally viewed as being illustrative of the general requirements of Section 2(1), similar requirements could be read into the general requirements of Section 3(1) or 3(2) as regards the duty of an employer or self-employed person to those at risk, but not in their employ.

How would a provider of outdoor activities possibly demonstrate compliance with Section 3(1) without providing appropriate guidance on precautions to users, as would be indicated in the findings of a risk assessment.

So, may be the consultant is right (up to a point) - "Don't share the whole risk assessment" - but not right if they think that translates as "Don't warn the users about risks"!!

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ncann88 on 05/05/2022(UTC)
ncann88  
#7 Posted : 05 May 2022 09:04:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ncann88

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ncann88 Go to Quoted Post

I work in the outdooor education sector. We are often asked for risk assessments to be provided to visiting schools, groups, companies etc. Talking to a fellow provider at the weekend, and their H&S Advisor has said they shouldn't do this and provide the following reasoning. 

Sorry, can you clarify the situation you are talking about: I think you are saying you work in outdoor education, and groups that visit you to avail themselves of your services ask to see your risk assessments for said services.  Seems reasonable to me. 

In essence, the 'fellow provider' is proposing that you should refuse to show the risk assessments for your site and activities to client organisations using your services?

To be honest, if I was your client, I was sending a group of people to your site for some activity, and you refused me sight of any risk assessments (on the grounds, basically, of 'trust me, I'm a pro'), I'd be finding a different provider.


You are correct, We offer acccommodation, activities etc to our customers (mostly youth type groups) and regularly get asked for risk assesssments to be provided to them. I have no issue with this, altough I'd be amaze if anyone actually read any of them. 

There are several 'quality' badges available in the sector with the theory that the site has been assessed as having everything in place so a visiting group don't need to worry although most of these aren't mandatory. 

I fully agree that by not providing them it looks like you are trying to hide something. My question is more to do with whether there was any truth in this belief that providing a risk assessment to someone makes them in some way culpable. As I said in my original post, I'm not convinced. 

Thanks

Nick 

A Kurdziel  
#8 Posted : 05 May 2022 09:29:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

You can only be held liable for what you control ie what process are yours. The idea that if you create risk assessment you take on the liability is wrong. If you manage a process, then you are liable for any health and safety issues arising from it and you then you must do the risk assessment for your process. So for example if you supply equipment/facilities for your outdoor training you are liable for the equipment (it is in a good state of repair etc) and providing training on its use. What you don’t have  any control over it is how it is being used as you have no authority over  the groups visiting your centre. Their behaviour is the responsivity of the school or youth group and they must provide a risk assessment looking at how they manage their people in this setting.

chris42  
#9 Posted : 05 May 2022 10:50:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I don’t deal with this sort of thing, but I can’t help feel I read somewhere that schools have to supply risk assessments to parents for under 18’s. I may just be thinking of work experience, but thought I would add this to the discussion for those that know more could comment one way or another.

Kate  
#10 Posted : 05 May 2022 13:42:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I think the is legal requirement Chris is alluding to is for schools to inform parents or guardians of the risks to work experience students on placements.

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chris42 on 05/05/2022(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 05 May 2022 13:52:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

One of the reasons I left Scouting many years ago was the adoption of Risk Assessments

https://www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/staying-safe-and-safeguarding/risk-assessments/

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
chris42 on 05/05/2022(UTC), chris42 on 05/05/2022(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 05 May 2022 13:52:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

One of the reasons I left Scouting many years ago was the adoption of Risk Assessments

https://www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/staying-safe-and-safeguarding/risk-assessments/

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
chris42 on 05/05/2022(UTC), chris42 on 05/05/2022(UTC)
chris42  
#13 Posted : 05 May 2022 14:15:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Extract from https://www.hse.gov.uk/services/education/school-trips.pdf my bold

9 Schools need to ensure that the precautions proposed are proportionate to the risks involved, and that their paperwork is easy to use. They should also take account of the assessments and procedures of any other organisations involved, and ensure that communications with others are clear. 10 The school’s arrangements for trips should ensure that: ■ risk assessment focuses attention on real risks – not risks that are trivial and fanciful; ■ proportionate systems are in place – so that trips presenting lower-risk activities are quick and easy to organise, and higher-risk activities (such as those involving climbing, caving or water-based activities) are properly planned and assessed; ■ those planning the trips are properly supported – so that staff can readily check if they have taken sufficient precautions or whether they should do more.

So I can see why they ask the op what the risks are and how they are managed for whatever it is they do. 

Chris

thanks 1 user thanked chris42 for this useful post.
lorna on 13/05/2022(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#14 Posted : 06 May 2022 08:35:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: ncann88 Go to Quoted Post

If we provide you a copy of our risk assessment for x and you don't spot ssomething we may have missed, you are eequally culpable' 

What a strange statement to make. Like Achrn im not totaly clear about what you are doing - but if you are providing supervision on outdoor activities and something went wronge the 1st thing an inspector would look for is the Risk Assessment. If its lacking then you are liable full stop. Yes a school has to show they have selected a senisble provider - do the The Adventure Activities Licensing Regulations still exist? But for me that's things that are reasonable for them to do - like look at your licence or ask about the training of your instructors. Is this advisor suggeting that if something goes wronge with teh activity then its the schools fault? As an inspector i always looked at why a "specilist" had been choosen but did not expect the people setting them on to be able to assess their RA in minute deatil or why would they emply the specilist?


stevedm  
#15 Posted : 07 May 2022 13:45:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

...if I was the person asking for it and you were being 'cautious' about providing...it would raise red flags for me and I would look into the processes closer...if you are competent in what you are doing there is nothing to hide from sharing that with others...they actually may learn a thing or two from you....

lorna  
#16 Posted : 13 May 2022 10:59:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lorna

I work in the Education sector and insist that teaching colleagues ask activity providers to provide information - a teacher booking a canoeing activity (for example) is reliant on the provider. Reluctance to provide information that the teacher can understand means that the activity will be cancelled in our organisation.

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