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Posted By Ron Young
Lets all hear it for the "Andrew". Booties are OK too!
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
When I first attended branch meetings over ten years ago smoking at these meeting used to take place. Now there is no smoking at all.
Nobody has changed the rules, nobody has banned smoking, it’s just that the world has moved on since then.
It may be the type pub I go in or the circle of friends that I have, but I don’t exactly see much smoking taking place in pubs these days.
Has anyone else noticed these subtle changes in smoking?
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Posted By Ron Young
I've definitely noticed a reduction in older smokers (reformed & I suppose natural wastage) but the young are very much into it. So I suppose if you frequent pubs designed for the young, you will not see a change but for all the boring old farts (me included) I agree with Arran (honest), that smoking has decreased amongst the BOF's!
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Ron - you a BOF - never! And agreeing with Arran as well. It's time you had a holiday.
It's actually got to a stage where smokers go outside the pub for a smoke.
No problem with that in the summer, and you don't get the 'critics' chipping away at you.
Getting back to alcohol (which we weren't) it is a fact that it causes more ill health, poverty and violent crime than any other single source except hard drugs.
Why is smoking perceived as being the greater evil?
Answer: Because it can be immediately seen and smelt - and is an easy target.
So now we are back to perception of risk - and not the actual risk involved in so called passive smoking.
In turn this is fueled by lack of tolerance for others.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
When I joined the Mob in '76 the first bit of paper I was aked to sign before I had my haircut and 'signed on' was a chitty to get Duty free fags and was then given 100 on the spot. Was then allowed 300 month thereafter.
You can get 50 'big' King eddies in Norway from EFI for £5. Didnt half make you sick.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
So, provided that we can identify a 'greater evil', Geoff, it's OK to practice and support a lesser one?.
It's their toxic smoke getting into my lungs to which I object. This is not comparable with being in the presence of persons drinking alcohol - unless they reach the point at which they become violent towards me - and, surely, you would not support that - despite what I have said earlier?
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Posted By Jason Gould
Its still going on. I dont believe it.
Right guys & gals lets get down to some facts.
Smoking Kills (we all know that)
Car accidents happen for plenty of reasons
Passive smoking has been proven to cause cancer.
I did a bit of looking up but not too indepth. Here are some of the facts.
FACT 1
The EPA report classified secondhand smoke as a Group A carcinogen, a designation which means that there is sufficient evidence that the substance causes cancer in humans. The Group A designation has been used by EPA for only 15 other pollutants, including asbestos, radon, and benzene. Only secondhand smoke has actually been shown in studies to cause cancer at typical environmental levels.
Well done it has been proven that passive smoke causes cancer.
FACT 2
EPA estimates that secondhand smoke is responsible for about 3,000 lung cancer deaths each year among nonsmokers in the U.S.; of these, the estimate is 800 from exposure to secondhand smoke at home and 2,200 from exposure in work or social situations
CAN A NUMBER CRUNCHER BREAK THIS DOWN FOR THE POPPULATION AVERAGE IN THE UK COMPARED TO AMERICA
The eleven studies used to provide fact 2 was based on women who lived with a smoker and high smoking work environments and social places.
Lots more on this address
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/strsfs.html
In all I agree with facts and these are facts.
So In my opinion looking at the numbers and if I was a non smoker I would draw a conclusion that as long as i was not living with a smoker and never did an 8hr shift in a smoking office or bar etc,(rough generalisation) I would be at low risk of developing any significant damage by walking past strangers smoking at a doorway or the person smoking next to me in a resturant.
If I was in a area when smoking was exposed to significant amount of smoke I would definatly think twice and figure out the risk to me.
I certanly would not develop a hysterical impulsion to condem every smoker as a potential threat to my health. Theres a lot more risk to worry about.
We go back to choice and like it or not a lot of non smokers choose to sit with a smoker and take their chances.
So as stated earlier, are we talking about RISK or INTOLLERANCE to others.
I think the latter is true and Die hard anti passive smokers are being a little to harsh.
I would suggest to you that though there may be the case of inconsideration by smokers towards the people around them, most sensible adult smokers will all agree that it is wise to reduce the ammount of passive smoke in the workplace and in some public places especially when in small bars etc.
However as I stated in earlier comments, I can never agree that banning smoking in public places altogether, can justified with the use of the words health risk.
The words over reaction comes to mind on the subject of passive smoking.
Dont get me wrong I hate smoking (plenty of times blown out by women the minute I sparked up)
I hate the smell (rolling one up right now)
It probably will kill me (praying there will be a cure)
As for passive smoke near children I am totally aginst as they dont have the choice to assess the risk for themselves.
So I leave you with a final thought.
Safety folk are often accused of over reaction and unrealistic outlooks on life. Lets not fuel this perception.
Regards
Jason
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Posted By Geoff Burt
'So, provided that we can identify a 'greater evil', Geoff, it's OK to practice and support a lesser one?.'
Where did I say that Ken?
What I asked for, I think, was more tolerance towards others.
I then went on to say that smokers were easy targets, and in your scenario, not the danger you think it is. And that other vices eg alcohol, are far more dangerous than passive smoking.
I would agree that it would be far more effective for you to put your obvious enthusiasm and energy into resolving something with more risk than a few people smoking at the door or even outside a H&S meeting.
You said toxic smoke. Salt is toxic, so is water. But as you well know it is largely quantity over a period of time and the route that counts. I don't think you have anything to fear from the occasional whiff of smoke, do you?
On another tack, I was at the scene of an accident on Tuesday with an HSE inspector. We got on to asbestos, as you do, and she made the statement that one fibre of asbestos can kill.
Heart over mind, perception and easy targets!
Geoff
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Geoff has summed up the situation succinctly, I am not saying this because he agreed with my earlier comment but..I think the subject has been discussed to death.
Clearly, there have been some supersillious comments amongst some quite sensible ones. In truth, the subject as suggested earlier is not worth the effort spent on it, and should have died into oblivion.
Hopefully, Ken may come up with something more enlightening and less emotive in future threads.
Ray
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Posted By Andy Petrie
Toast can be a carcinogen, should we ban that at safety events. Or have special designated toast eating areas.
On the subject of toxic fumes, do you know what comes out of car exhausts. Should we hold all future safety events away from roads so that these 'reckless' drivers who carelessly exhaust emmisions don't poison our lungs.
(For those who think I am mad, the dust formed when scraping burnt toast can be carciogenic if inhaled)
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Posted By Ian Stone
Anyone see that Pizza Hut has now banned smoking at all its restaurants, to protect customers and staff from passive smoking. is this a sight of things to come?
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Posted By John Mackessack
'Pizza Hut has now banned smoking at all its restaurants'.
I think that is commendable. Now they should concentrate on making a decent pizza.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
in all honesty I was under the impression that Macccy D, BKing, Pizza hut and similar fast food joints were 'No smoking' anyway.
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
Hasn't this one been jumped all over?
I used to find that after a couple of hours in a pub that my eyes would run from the smoke in the area, however, now I find that so many people have given up or become more thoughtful that this is no longer an issue.
I am a real believer in moderation and tolerance and the live and let live attitude. I believe that there should be specific smoking areas at conferences and other places where there is a mixture of people, but some like to smoke after dinner and as long as it is after and not during then I think there should be a measure of tolerance, especially as the number of smokers has reduced quite radically over recent years.
I liked the fatty foods comments - given the number of people who are both overweight and obese in the UK, this is probably more relevant than smoking - granted, they are not forcing their obesity on you but sometimes the tables for dinners can be quite small if you get very overweight people either side of you - you know it. What about a nice bit of BO? You might welcome having a smoker on one side if you have someone with BO on the other - it can be vile.
As for drinkers, from a female perspective, very drunk men are a little scary, can't say I've ever been scared of a smoker.
Anyway, my view, separate when you can and tolerate it when you can't.
Hilary
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Posted By Ron Young
Hilary,
I do take offence at your attitude to the overweight/obese. Not all have BO problems and I might add there are many normal weight people I know who tend to smell a bit "ripe" as the day wears on.
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
Sorry you took offence Ron but I think if you look again you will find that there is a full stop between the part on obesity and the part on body odour. These two items were not connected and never meant to be so.
Hilary
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Posted By Ron Young
just playing devils advocate from the way the posting read
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Posted By Ken Taylor
Thanks, Geoff.
I am asking for more consideration towards others and you are asking for more tolerance. If only we could achieve both!
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Actually Ken, if you read your original posting you didn't mention anything about consideration for others, you were advocating a total ban at H&S events.
Shall we start again?
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Posted By Sean Fraser
Fabulous thread Ken - thank you for initiating it. The replies have shown precisely why this has been such a sticky subject over the last few decades, with the inexorable push towards stopping this reportedly dangeorus habit. In fact the World Health Organisation has recently endorsed its commitment to stamping out smoking altogether. But so far, due to whatever reasons (political and business interests mainly) no country has had the gall to make it illegal nationally, and so we end up with the problems of trying to reduce smoking without any real reinforcement to back it up. There is still debate as to whether or not smoking is actually harmful to health! It is interesting that people who are engaged in an industry sector that would ban the use of a work chemical based on a single Material Safety Data Sheet would use the specious argument that all of the mountains of research to date has yet to prove a link to ill-health by smoking.
What I found most interesting about this thread is that the main point has been missed - the issue of "leadership by example". A good example of this recently was the two policmen who used a technicality to avoid a speeding conviction. The guilt was proven, but because of supposedly inadequate warning signs which didn't meet the current specifications (they were missing a black boarder around the words "speed cameras", the courts accepted this point and let them off. An exellent example to all of the other citizens who always believed that they can break the law and still not be punished if they can find a technicality to let them off. Perhaps this is why their Chief Constable was reported as saying they (the police service) were "extremely disappointed" about the case. Do as I say, not as I do is alive and well and being joyously celebrated as ever.
Funny ol' world, innit?
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Posted By Andy Petrie
If we ban smoking how are we going to support the NHS?
Are all the non smokers going to be happy with a huge tax increase to support the welfare state? doubt it.
How will we cope when alll the people who die from smoking related inlesses live to a ripe old age, our pension system can't manage as it is.
I know this sounds brutal, but they are factors that we have to consider. As far as the economy goes, smoking is good fo the country.
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Posted By Keith Jackson
There are many things in life which we can choose to take part in. Something which we personally choose not to indulge in makes it easy to criticise those that do. Remember when you point the forefinger there 3 more pointing back at you. I find some of the responses interesting. Has anyone really got the right answer.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
As a 'footnote' on this one, I have just returned from the IOSH Public Services Symposium at York and would like to express appreciation of the improved conditions for tobacco smoke avoiders this year. Smoking only appeared to take place outside the buildings at some distance and in the bar - and, even there, there was a notice asking people not to smoke where the staff were serving and there was a non-smoking area too!
Thankyou York University and IOSH.
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