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Is the OS&H profession really held in poor regard?
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Thanks to everybody who has contributed so far to what I hoped would be a good discussion. I’ll respond to some points later and also add new ones.
In the meantime, I can’t resist reacting to Clairel’s comments at #7. Though I didn’t assert that the bad image is purely down to media entities and people like the ‘Daily Mail’ and Jeremy Clarkson, I do agree that OS&H has some practitioners who go ‘over the top’ or create a bad impression in various ways. One classic way is to bore people and waste their time by going into detail about OS&H laws during training sessions. Also I agree that some legislation and guidance is either ‘over the top’ or too vague.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Claire, I actually don't ever say 'I save lives', and I feel the need for neither an ego boost or self-justification. I made my point only to counter yours, but believe me, in my industry it is the management, and that includes H&S management, that saves lives. If you don't believe me, read the Winterbourne View report. OK, nobody died there, but where there's no management in the care industry standards very quickly hit rock bottom, and rock bottom standards do kill people,
John
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Rank: Super forum user
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I omitted to add earlier that an IOSH member I know mentioned some time ago that he had met an OS&H consultant who works (or had worked) for Jeremy Clarkson (JC)! Just in case I misheard or imagined this interesting snippet of information, I recently did a check with my contact. He assured me that the information was true. Therefore, unless the consultant he met was spinning him a yarn, it’s good to know that JC thinks it appropriate to get OS&H advice even though this doesn’t accord with the populist attitude about health & safety he seems to cultivate when appearing on TV!
However, though it’s appropriate to share this snippet on this forum, it is not intended as an incitement for anyone to identify any individuals who have given JC professional OS&H advice. Remember that commercial confidentiality and a code of conduct apply in OS&H just as they do in other professions!
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Rank: Super forum user
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NR wrote:Clairel if you came up with answers like this working where I do you would have every reason to hate your job. Given your reponse I suspect your measure of "good" H&S is LTIR, RIR, AFR etc.
Have you ever considered the word prevention?
Why is there always someone who feels a need to throw insults at someones capability of doing a good job or professionalism? NR you know nothing about me or how I work and certainly not based on the fact that I don't think H&S professionals actually 'save' lives. Because to me the term 'saving lives' is different to preventing accidents. Leave your off the cuff judgements of people's cometence outside the door thank you.
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Rank: Forum user
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Clairel wrote:NR wrote:Clairel if you came up with answers like this working where I do you would have every reason to hate your job. Given your reponse I suspect your measure of "good" H&S is LTIR, RIR, AFR etc.
Have you ever considered the word prevention?
Why is there always someone who feels a need to throw insults at someones capability of doing a good job or professionalism? NR you know nothing about me or how I work and certainly not based on the fact that I don't think H&S professionals actually 'save' lives. Because to me the term 'saving lives' is different to preventing accidents. Leave your off the cuff judgements of people's cometence outside the door thank you. Claire, I'll refer you back to "...If you need an ego boost go and retrain in the medical profession" and ask does this fall into the realm of unnecessary off the cuff comments? (People in glass houses...) If someone feels that the H&S work they do saves lives then, honestly, who is anyone to question their personal ethos. If it gets them through a tough working week then all the more power to them.
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Rank: Forum user
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Nlivesey wrote:Clairel wrote:NR wrote:Clairel if you came up with answers like this working where I do you would have every reason to hate your job. Given your reponse I suspect your measure of "good" H&S is LTIR, RIR, AFR etc.
Have you ever considered the word prevention?
Why is there always someone who feels a need to throw insults at someones capability of doing a good job or professionalism? NR you know nothing about me or how I work and certainly not based on the fact that I don't think H&S professionals actually 'save' lives. Because to me the term 'saving lives' is different to preventing accidents. Leave your off the cuff judgements of people's cometence outside the door thank you. Claire, I'll refer you back to "...If you need an ego boost go and retrain in the medical profession" and ask does this fall into the realm of unnecessary off the cuff comments? (People in glass houses...) If someone feels that the H&S work they do saves lives then, honestly, who is anyone to question their personal ethos. If it gets them through a tough working week then all the more power to them. Well said and got to say I agree.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Nlivesey wrote:Clairel wrote:NR wrote:Clairel if you came up with answers like this working where I do you would have every reason to hate your job. Given your reponse I suspect your measure of "good" H&S is LTIR, RIR, AFR etc.
Have you ever considered the word prevention?
Why is there always someone who feels a need to throw insults at someones capability of doing a good job or professionalism? NR you know nothing about me or how I work and certainly not based on the fact that I don't think H&S professionals actually 'save' lives. Because to me the term 'saving lives' is different to preventing accidents. Leave your off the cuff judgements of people's cometence outside the door thank you. Claire, I'll refer you back to "...If you need an ego boost go and retrain in the medical profession" and ask does this fall into the realm of unnecessary off the cuff comments? (People in glass houses...) If someone feels that the H&S work they do saves lives then, honestly, who is anyone to question their personal ethos. If it gets them through a tough working week then all the more power to them. I think you'll find that I haven't questioned anyone's competence or professionalism by saying that if they need an ego boost they should join the medical profession. Even though actually I think that H&S professionals stating that they 'saves lives' does nothing for our image as whole. I think it has the potential to make others think they we are bigging oursleves up too much. Interestingly when I applied to the HSE I responded to an advert in which they stated that in 2 yrs time I could save a life. I have never felt that to be a true reflection of the role. Preventing accidents yes, saving lives no. But regardless, that's my opinion and so there's no need to say that I must therefore consider a job well done to just be preventing loss time incidents. Actually I consider it a job well done if I can walk away from a client wihht them feeling a little less scared, a little less confused and little more knowledgeable. I consider most of my work to be about communicating to others well. It's down to them to put the prevention measures in place with the knowledge and the confidence that I have given them. When a lady turns round to me and says - thank you so much for making this so much easier for me to undertsand, I feel so much better now, I was so worried - that's when I know I've done a good job. How many people have been 'saved' from accidents becuase of my advice? I will never know and so I give no thought to it.
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When asked I tell people I work in risk management.
As far as responses are concerned; it all depends who is asking the question but when there has been a workplace incident I find I am suddenly far more popular !!
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Claire,
As I have said, I don't tell people 'I save lives', but your approach does leave me a little puzzled. If someone causes a fatal accident, they can be prosecuted for having taken a life. That's a matter of fact, not of opinion. So surely the converse is true; if someone prevents a fatal accident they have saved a life.
Now I admit that all sorts of contingencies come into play, but if we can identify causality in accidents well enough to prosecute, surely we can identify causality in an absence or reduction of accidents?
John
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Actually JWK in H&S law they are prosecuted for the breach not for killing someone. Severity of outcome does not refelect severity of breach either. Someone can die and there be no breach.
A cyclist could die if he hit a pothole at speed. The cause is the pot hole and perhaps more fundamently (possibly) the management of hole repairs. But does the man who fills the pot hole save lives? Does the man who tells him to fill the pot hole save lives? IMO no. They try to prevent an accident or incident occuring. That to me is not saving lives. If it is to you then.....
It's a bit like how many people are referred to as 'heroes' nowadays. My defintion of a hero is somewhat different.
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Rank: Forum user
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When it comes down to it I've always held one particular statement above all others:
"...safety is invisible in the sense that safe outcomes do not deviate from the expected, and so there is nothing to capture the attention. If people see nothing, they presume that nothing is happening, and that nothing will continue to happen if they continue to act as before. But this is misleading because it takes a number of dynamic inputs to create stable outcomes." - Weick (1991).
I reckon this simple description of a pretty complex concept puts it all into context (try saying that after a couple of pints!).
So I consider my job as working behind the scenes, pointing people in the right direction, infuencing those who can make the decisions and correcting those who make mistakes. Simple in theory... ;)
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In theory we are prosecuted for the breach, not the outcome, very true, but actually, it's the outcome that determines whether or not we get prosecuted. As an example, would an organisation be fined £65,000 plus £35,000 costs for failing to carry out risk assessments on bedrails? Well, they would if they killed somebody; I know that because we did, and we were. On occasions in other establishments when HSE Inspectors (or LEA Inspectors or Regulators) have noticed a lack of RA we have just been told to sort it. There's a huge gulf between legal theory and practice here, so I stand by my original point, we get prosecuted for causing a fatality.
Of course we can get prosecuted for causing mere injuries, and on occasion it is possible to get prosecuted for injuring nobody (the RR(FS)O seems to be commonly used in this way), but it says nothing about the sense of my argument. If you've ever been a defendant in court you'll know that the death is the focus of the proceedings, the breach, especially if you've chosen to plead guilty, is a mere technicality.
And not all accidents are caused by factors equating to pot-holes. A pot-hole is caused by weather, wear and time, and there's a real sense in which it can't be prevented. Dropping somebody out of a hoist is caused by a whole raft of human factors, which need to be addressed by management, and which can be prevented.
We change the things we can,
John
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When I was young, handsome and dashing I used to tell the young ladies when asked "what I do" that "I transported goods all over the world" as a Merchant Navy Officer . I only told them such when in fact I was learning my profession as a cadet. I was spouting ahead of my lowly status. It got me little reward.
Some years later aged 27 (and on my first command) I could have re- used these pathetic words but
maturity in the head dictated otherwise.
Health and Safety bods (of which I am now one) are not life savers as some seem to think they are.
Jon
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jwk wrote:In theory we are prosecuted for the breach, not the outcome, very true, but actually, it's the outcome that determines whether or not we get prosecuted. As an example, would an organisation be fined £65,000 plus £35,000 costs for failing to carry out risk assessments on bedrails? Well, they would if they killed somebody; I know that because we did, and we were. On occasions in other establishments when HSE Inspectors (or LEA Inspectors or Regulators) have noticed a lack of RA we have just been told to sort it. There's a huge gulf between legal theory and practice here, so I stand by my original point, we get prosecuted for causing a fatality.
Of course we can get prosecuted for causing mere injuries, and on occasion it is possible to get prosecuted for injuring nobody (the RR(FS)O seems to be commonly used in this way), but it says nothing about the sense of my argument. If you've ever been a defendant in court you'll know that the death is the focus of the proceedings, the breach, especially if you've chosen to plead guilty, is a mere technicality.
And not all accidents are caused by factors equating to pot-holes. A pot-hole is caused by weather, wear and time, and there's a real sense in which it can't be prevented. Dropping somebody out of a hoist is caused by a whole raft of human factors, which need to be addressed by management, and which can be prevented.
We change the things we can,
John I was the prosecution JWK. So trying to tell me how prosecutions work and who gets prosecuted, just based on the company you worked for getting prosecuted, isn't exactly going to impress me. The outcome does not necessarily determine the prosecution. Sure a death or serious injury will be investigated with prosecution in mind but that isn't always what happens. I've not prosecuted when there was a death. Equally I've prosecuted when there was no incident at all. Level of fine is different and is related to many factors. Hence aggravating and mitigating factors being submitted.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I know you were the prosecution, that's not my point really.
If we can be prosecuted for a breach (OK, let's say the breach), and that breach resulted in a death, then we have caused the death. If we can cause a death by poor H&S & management practice, we can save lives by good H&S & management practice, John M's trenchant statements notwithstanding. Getting caught up in legal definitions doesn't help, and I'm not trying to impress you Claire, nothing could be further from my mind.
And to repeat, I have never said 'I save lives', but I guess I think we do,
John
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Oh, and it's not 'just' based on the company I work for getting prosecuted; it's based on 16 years in this profession, reading, going to conferences, studying, you know, the things we do,
JOhn
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Don't know about you but all this going round in circles is giving me a headache! Plus I have work I need to get on with. Let's agree to disagree and call it a day.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Maybe we are actually disagreeing over semantics.
I can assert with a very high level of confidence that during over 35 years of working as a risk management advisor in various guises, I have prevented fatal accidents and probably prevented people getting fatal diseases.
Whilst I can accept that this is not actually "saving lives", for my purposes and for most people I work with, for and speak to, the distinction between preventing a fatality and saving a life is not worth arguing over.
I also have had the unforgettable and traumatic experience of not being able to save a life, but that is another story.
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If the formula was as simple as no accidents = saved lives by a safety bod we would be laughing. But it doesn't
Does the man who invented the seatbelt get to say he saved lives. No, he invented a device capable of saving lives if it's worn. He has no determination on whether it is or is not used. That is not to diminish his or her contribution to the safety field but the same goes with our advice.
I discussed this thread with a Doctor today. He felt that making the statement 'I save lives' was extremely crass. This is from an individual who could, without fear of contradiction, say he has saved lives.
Unless your in a position of enforcement you are in a position of influence. Nothing more.
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Am I the only one that finds the 'saving lives' topic a joke? Is this a wind-up?
Lets remove all safety people and the systems they devise to manage risk and measure the result over 10 years.
Directly or indirectly 'our' profession must save lives or why are we doing it?
Utter nonsense.
The issue of stating that you 'save lives' in conversation or when training is entirely down to the individual and/or topic at the time.
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Moving away from the saving lives argument.
Consider these options:
Group A; doctors, soldiers, fire and rescue, doctors
Group B; traffic wardens, solicitors, tax collectors, accountants
Group C; brickies, engineers, designers, joiners,
Which would you put yourself in?
Which would your friends and family put you in?
Which would the general public put you in?
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Rank: Super forum user
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John J wrote:Moving away from the saving lives argument.
Consider these options:
Group A; doctors, soldiers, fire and rescue, doctors
Group B; traffic wardens, solicitors, tax collectors, accountants
Group C; brickies, engineers, designers, joiners,
Which would the general public put you in? If i said "I do not enjoy working in the profession", i would expect it to be with the reviled and the geeks in Group B If i said "I want to make a difference and try and save lives", i believe they would put that person in Group A (and add the police to that group) IMHO.
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Reminded somewhat of a Blues musican who claimed "i just shot him in the head, whether he livedor died was between him and God"
Did my driving instructer "save lives" because (so far) I've never been involved in fatal road accident?, or is that due to my teachers who taaught me to read the highway code and road signs?
I try to make things a bit safer
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Pseudonym wrote:I try to make things a bit safer The best answer yet
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I don't know, I'm reminded of the days when I was unemployed and hitch-hiking up and down the country (Orgreave was happening at the time), and I asked a trucker how long he'd been in his job. 'Forty years' he said. Do you like it, I asked him' 'Can't stand it' was his answer. Why do a job you despise? Yes, I know, for the money, and we all put up with stuff, but really?
And John J, I'd have to answer none of the above. I put myself in with people like Clinical Quality & Infection Control nurses, maybe Driving Instructors, people like that. People who help people do something they might not like, but which isn't as bad as they think, and which might actually help,
John
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Rank: Super forum user
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jwk wrote:I don't know, I'm reminded of the days when I was unemployed and hitch-hiking up and down the country (Orgreave was happening at the time), and I asked a trucker how long he'd been in his job. 'Forty years' he said. Do you like it, I asked him' 'Can't stand it' was his answer. Why do a job you despise? Yes, I know, for the money, and we all put up with stuff, but really?
And John J, I'd have to answer none of the above. I put myself in with people like Clinical Quality & Infection Control nurses, maybe Driving Instructors, people like that. People who help people do something they might not like, but which isn't as bad as they think, and which might actually help,
John God Are driving instructors really so despised? I ask, since my wife has just given up teaching to become- A DRIVING INSTRUCTOR!
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Rank: New forum user
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I give advice, if people choose to listen that depends on them, if it saves someone's life it's more down to the person who listened.
We do all share a responsibility to each other and more importantly we care. We all want to work or live in a safer environment and that is why we do what we do I hope.
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Driving Instructors aren't despised! It's the learner drivers that get all the blame ;-)
John
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Rank: Super forum user 
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It is a shame that a potentially interesting thread has degenerated into whether we save lives or not.
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Its a job!!! Plain and simple, pays for my babies food and clothing and keeps a roof over my head..so not at all concerned how we are perceived as long as I know hand on heart I am doing a good job.
I work in Health & Safety management but also like Decimonal say I am in risk management to avoid the tired puns and jibes; luckily I find I can easily turn off from H&S as soon as I clock off and then go do stuff with sharp and burny hot things from great heights.
Not really worried how the profession is perceived, but we do bring it on ourselves IMHO.
The only other profession I would equate with its own perception of grandeur and self importance is teaching. (based on personal experience and relationships but I await the backlash from H&S pros who have teacher partners) :-)
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Directly or indirectly 'our' profession must save lives or why are we doing it?
Simple answer to the above quote - Money!
Jon
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Wouldnt disagree John M
Job = Money = Fun and Living.
Dont see anything wrong with that logic.
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#71
'The only other profession I would equate with its own perception of grandeur and self importance is teaching. (based on personal experience and relationships but I await the backlash from H&S pros who have teacher partners) :-)'
Zimmy says...
No backlash form me although I teach H&S and electrical H&S etc. All the above teach. We all educate. As for me, I have a problem with the people who say 'It's just a job'. If you don't get involved to your bones how do you expect others to take advice from you?
Why do something like this if you don't have a burning passion for it? What a waste of a life.
My answer to the original question... read all the above (including this bit)
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Ray,
Fair enough. I think, as has already been said in this thread, that people's perceptions of us vary, it's a question of what psychologists would call framing. If people are asked about H&S in a neutral context, they might well recall some fabrication put about by a bored tabloid sub-editor (now there's a job with absolutely no social value), or come out with what their brother in-law told them about what the council did. But if you were to ask them what they thought of H&S if they were wanting protective clothing at work, or they work in an office at 90+ degrees, or they can't get training for love nor money, you might get a different answer.
My perception is this; I really have met very very few jobsworths doing H&S, most of us manage to keep the interest and the passion alive, and pasionate people can be very interesting,
John
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Rank: Super forum user
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I find it intriguing that we remain a profession where most of us appear to be committed and passionate about what we do despite the negative broadcast and written media comments.
Yes, we do it for the money but I choose to do it for the money rather than other jobs that may pay more but give minimal enjoyment or non-financial reward. There are times when I have become jaded and fed up but these have passed. Mostly I like doing my job, I enjoy delivering a good service and hopefully will continue to do so.
To those who do it only for the money: you must be mad! More than that, are you really doing a good job? If you're only going through the motions then how many lives are you failing to save? [quickly takes cover from incoming]
Sorry I just remembered it's Friday and couldn't resist!
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Rank: Forum user
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Zimmy
Comments like " a waste of a life" probably best sum up the lack of people skills from safety pros that has got our profession the reputation it now has.
Sorry mate my "burning passions" are anything but work related; I thoroughly enjoy my job but thats what it is "A JOB" however I appreciate and respect if anyone elses motivation is different to mine.
Would be interesting to hear what the forum would say, hand on hearts ........money or passion?
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garryw1509 wrote:Would be interesting to hear what the forum would say, hand on hearts ........money or passion? I was lucky enough to be offered two roles when I started with my current employer; process operator (the job I originally applied for), or H,S&Env Officer. I was offered the H&S role because of my passion for the subject which evidently came through in interview. I subsequently took the H&S role at a substantial paycut to the process role. Definitely didn't do that for the money! With regards to the original question, it's all subjective; I think the taxman is a **** until the day I get a rebate, then he's my best friend! :-P Alan
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Garry,
It has to be both for me, like David B above. The money's good, but I also like the challenge, the ever-shifting goals, the people stuff and the rest. I also have no problem with being in a job that's lambasted by the media; if they liked us I would worry.
I don't put all my life into the job, it is after all only a job, and I have interests well removed from the field of OH&S, but it's a good job and an interesting one,
John
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Rank: Super forum user
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No offence intended Gary. Just a point of view. But as we spend a huge part of our lives in work, wouldn't it be more satisfying to really enjoy what we do? I for one am lucky to feel that way about it.
Would I have wasted the past 8 hours a day for 4 decades in a job than meant little? Not a chance.
Again, no offence intended.
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