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Is the OS&H profession really held in poor regard?
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You want to know why the profession is held in poor regard?
I'll tell you why: pendantry.
You don't need to scroll up for examples either, (albeit the discussion about saving lives is a cracking example!!) just look at a number of threads on this forum.
We're all guilty of it at one time or another, trying to follow non-binding guidance to the letter and not "seeing the woods for the trees" as one poster correctly pointed out. Whether it this pedantry and level of detail that results in bad decisions i'm not sure, but it surely can't help the image of H&S...
Let's all have a cuddle.
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Rank: Super forum user
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What exactly do you mean by pedantry?
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Not wanting to be 'pedantic' about the exact use of the noun, but it seems the best word to describe some of the problems we face, and the pointless arguments often seen on the forums.
Going over the top.
Being obsessed with rules.
Not looking at the wider picture etc.
Arguing about minor details instead of the real issues.
Arguing about if we actually do save lives or not....
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RayRapp wrote:Victor, your post reminds me of that age old mantra - 'safety is our no. 1 priority'. Really? I have never worked anywhere where safety is the no.1 priority and do not anticipate ever doing so before I hang my hard hat up. I agree Ray with you in not anticipating safety being the no: 1 priority in the forseeable future, but in my experience it was, albeit 25/30 years ago...... e.g. Managing Director ".....anything you need 'Victor' in terms of assistance or resources in ensuring all who work here are safe, well you just need to see me". Leadership from the top & five years followed without a LTA. Heady days indeed..... long gone it appears. I'm sure others could quote similar 'happy times'.
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malcarleton wrote:I am not pure SHE, I'm the Safety Engineer for my company (Aircraft maintenance and modification) My background is in aircraft engineering (30+ years)I don't have the breadth of experience that some of you people have, but i sometimes feel that the content of this forum is just an opportunity for people to snipe at others, some of the threads here defy logic and are unhealthy I understand your point malcarleton, but I think a lot of the 'sniping' as you put it, is probably borne out of the current issues encountered in the industry today. Businesses not really interested, poor work/job prospects – just look at the last couple of years of SHP & vacancies or lack of - Government and the press having a good old 'go' at every opportunity and now we have TV programmes being made to have a 'pop' at H&S. This all puts it way down the 'ladder' and subsequently some may 'vent' their frustrations on here - I don't think it is meant to be personal, just reflects where ‘we’ as an industry at the moment. I remember this forum being oh so different 10/12 years ago....... many of those contributors are gone and sorely missed.
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A Kurdziel wrote:What exactly do you mean by pedantry? This was a feeble joke but still I have noticed tendency for people to get on their high horse especially about things that they are interested in. So there is a lot of ‘You must do this’ and ‘if you don’t the sky will fall on your head’. Some people like to quote regulations all of the time or case law. I think most of the time they should just be saying ‘based on what I know I think that this is the safest way to do this job. What do you think and can you come up with something better?’ and not worry about ACoPs, British Standards etc. It is when they start quoting the rule book that people switch off.
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So as Invictus stated - I thought this was about if OS&H profession is held in poor regard?
I agree with Invictus and others - if it wasn't held in porr regard the question wouldn't have been 'posted'. My reasons are pretty much as I replied to malcarletons post, e.g. current financial climate, businesses not really interested, poor work/job prospects, Government, press & media 'putting H&S down and/or ridicule, public perception and not 'in vogue' to be positive, etc, etc. I'm fortunate in that I work for myself and imagine that it must be extremely hard being an H&S employee today - in the last week I made a conscious decision to refuse to work for two separate clients, as it would have been like 'pushing water uphill' - not so easy if you are an employee to 'walk away'.
I sincerely hope to see a change but struggling to see any 'green shoots'. Even those people that were once in the industry are leaving the 'ship'. Thirteen years ago I completed an MSc on SHE - out of sixteen of my fellow cohorts, only two of us remain in the industry, well they hardly hold H&S in high regard......nuff said...... the sun is shining, time for a round of 19 holes.
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Victor Meldrew wrote:
I understand your point malcarleton, but I think a lot of the 'sniping' as you put it, is probably borne out of the current issues encountered in the industry today. Businesses not really interested, poor work/job prospects – just look at the last couple of years of SHP & vacancies or lack of - Government and the press having a good old 'go' at every opportunity and now we have TV programmes being made to have a 'pop' at H&S. This all puts it way down the 'ladder' and subsequently some may 'vent' their frustrations on here - I don't think it is meant to be personal, just reflects where ‘we’ as an industry at the moment. I remember this forum being oh so different 10/12 years ago....... many of those contributors are gone and sorely missed.
Agreed.
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A Kurdziel wrote:A Kurdziel wrote:What exactly do you mean by pedantry? This was a feeble joke Ha, apologies. Weekend of excess may have slowed me down ;-)
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Rank: New forum user
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In many ways this topic is like the forums themselves.
Take a general question posed on the forum. The first couple of answerers try to answer the question. Before long someone will undoubtably quote what a law or regulation says, then everyone will agree or disagree with the interpretation of that law regulation. In the end there will be 50 answers none answering the innocent question just a lot of people showing how much/little they know.
Take then a topical question, lots of opinions, my qualification is better than your qualification, with eventually someone quoting some law or regulation, generally no useful answer.
Then take a technical question. One response, with no real answer or provision of assistance, or most likley have you conducted a risk assessment.
This I feel sums up H&S practioners in general. Usually very good at quoting whatever law/regulation applies, technical knowledge outside of their specific role and function or for real technical safety matters is poor, but always have an opinion. In many ways this is why in many circumstances there is low regard, is the quickness of quoting laws when what people really want is help to solve their problems.
in my honest opinion.
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Making money(profit) is and always has been the No 1 priority for businesses. Anyone who belives otherwise is deluded.
Safety has never been No.1 nor ever will be. Even matters of safety have cost built in - the accountants pull the strings. The safety bod is just the puppet.
Jon
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kevincw wrote:In many ways this topic is like the forums themselves.
Take a general question posed on the forum. The first couple of answerers try to answer the question. Before long someone will undoubtably quote what a law or regulation says, then everyone will agree or disagree with the interpretation of that law regulation. In the end there will be 50 answers none answering the innocent question just a lot of people showing how much/little they know.
Take then a topical question, lots of opinions, my qualification is better than your qualification, with eventually someone quoting some law or regulation, generally no useful answer.
Then take a technical question. One response, with no real answer or provision of assistance, or most likley have you conducted a risk assessment.
This I feel sums up H&S practioners in general. Usually very good at quoting whatever law/regulation applies, technical knowledge outside of their specific role and function or for real technical safety matters is poor, but always have an opinion. In many ways this is why in many circumstances there is low regard, is the quickness of quoting laws when what people really want is help to solve their problems.
in my honest opinion.
Indeed Kevin, and how did you answer the original question?
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Question: Is the OS&H profession really held in poor regard?
Answer: It depends on who is doing the beholding!
If the person considering us is a member of the media eg the Daily Mail then of course they will treat us will treat us as figures of fun because we are an acceptable target and most people don’t understand what we do and why we are doing it.
If the person is a manager/employer then it becomes more ambiguous. If you have a good relationship with your employer, and they tend to back you up, then yes, you are held in good regard. If the employer is on sinking ship or looking to make a fast buck then of course they may hold H&S in contempt, just as they hold anything else that society requires then to do in exchange for being allowed to run a business from paying NI to doing proper accounts to actually paying the workers etc.
What some H&S practitioners forget is that they are not prophets coming down from Mount Sinai with the a H&S Management system written on tables of stone. They have to engage people, both employers and employees and sell there services. This counts double for the brave souls who strike it out alone as independent consultants.
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A Kurdziel wrote:What some H&S practitioners forget is that they are not prophets coming down from Mount Sinai with the a H&S Management system written on tables of stone. If nothing else this type of subject does bring out some good wit!!! Heh heh heh. I've long held the belief that the job isn't so much about applying the rules but instead is about developing relationships so that where you need to advise/guide people will take on board the reccomended course of action. There are times where you will need to be blunt, but if people know that's unusual they'll pay more attention when it happens. Like the saying goes, you'll get a long way with a quiet word... but you'll get further with a quiet word and a big stick!!!
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As alway I am with Clairel ( Love Claire posts) on this topic ...its a job that pays for my lifestyle, and there are worse places to be ....unblocking drains, working in very hot roof spaces , outside in winter breaking ice of scaffolding etc...Like I used to do in the 80s.
The job is about relationship building , and I think I'm quiet good at it , so I see the benefits on a day to day basis which makes the job easier.
By the way I am finding this thread addictive,could'nt wait to log on this morning.
But then again I used to be addicted to the Hocky Cokey , but I turned myself aound , and thats what its all about!!!
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John M wrote:Making money(profit) is and always has been the No 1 priority for businesses. Anyone who belives otherwise is deluded.
Safety has never been No.1 nor ever will be. Even matters of safety have cost built in - the accountants pull the strings. The safety bod is just the puppet.
Jon Bit of a sweeping statement that - I think the 74 businesses & the majority of their employees within, that I've worked with over the past 11 years who have suffered a fatality in their workplaces would not agree with you. I'm not absolutely 100% certain that it is No: 1 priority yet, but I can certainly say that 'they' have got to a stage where it is equal in importance to all other business functions..... and that is good progress. Their H&S bods are not seen as puppets either - shame people had to die to get change.
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Health and Safety should NOT be the no1 priority. Because what's the point having a safe work place that can't make money? The business would shut, jobs would be lost and the consequences of that would an increase in a ill health (and probably suicide) due to stress / money worries.
It's a balance. Keeping people as safe as possible whilst still making money, which means not putting such stringent policies and procedures in place that prevent a business from operating effectively. But it also means not ignoring H&S. I see my job as trying to balance the two and that in itself is a risk as I am gambling with the advice I give. I know I put my neck on the block making judgement calls and I'm prepared to do that to give clients the most pragmatic advice. That's how I try to change people's mind about H&S. I don't quote bible and verse to protect myself.
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Do the business directors know you are putting the buisness at risk?
Why not give options and let the decision makers make the decisions.
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I'm always honest. My clients appreciate that. If I went in heavy handed with the letter of the law they would do nothing.
Not making money is also a risk.
Every company in this country is taking a risk becuase there are H&S issues at every work place. That is the nature of H&S, you can't eliminate risk only manage it. The tricky bit is what level to manage it to.
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garfield esq wrote:Forums are not generally indicative of the relevant industry - they tend to attract egocentric windbags with too much time on their hands.
Have a nice day and please try to enjoy your work, it's worthwhile you know... Best resposnse I have seen on here for some time. Brillant.
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No organisation can ever make H&S it’s “number one priority.” If they did they would apply the hierarchy of control and eliminate the risk totally by shutting down and going home!
On the other hand no employer can ignore H&S concerns and they have to balance them with what the business is trying to do ( not necessarily making money, in the public sector we a are committed- in some cases by law- to provide a certain level of service) with the risk it can generate.
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Clairel wrote:Health and Safety should NOT be the no1 priority. Because what's the point having a safe work place that can't make money? The business would shut, jobs would be lost and the consequences of that would an increase in a ill health (and probably suicide) due to stress / money worries.
It's a balance. Keeping people as safe as possible whilst still making money, which means not putting such stringent policies and procedures in place that prevent a business from operating effectively. But it also means not ignoring H&S. I see my job as trying to balance the two and that in itself is a risk as I am gambling with the advice I give. I know I put my neck on the block making judgement calls and I'm prepared to do that to give clients the most pragmatic advice. That's how I try to change people's mind about H&S. I don't quote bible and verse to protect myself. I really think you are way off beam- H&S is not about cost (money) it is about what it can save - and I am not talking money. In my opinion your approach is putting yourself on very thin ice. Here's hoping you never have to justify your most pragmatic advice when it hits the fan.
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H&S does cost money. It can save money sometimes but it can also cost money in time and resources. That is why it is a balance.
I've always had to use judgement. As an inspector it was called 'discretion' now it's just judgement. Am I prepared to stand up in a court of law a defend that. If necessary. InNterestingly, some of my 'judgements' I have discussed with ex-colleagues (inspectors) and they've always thought I've taken the right (pragmatic) approach.
I may not be an inspector anymore but I was trained to use my judgement and I still do. Often I find that it's enforcers who take a amore reasonable line.
I would rather help someone make a difference by getting them on board with the concept than put them off H&S altogether by going in with the letter of the law. I cover my backside where I need to.
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Clairel wrote: .... some of my 'judgements' I have discussed with ex-colleagues (inspectors) and they've always thought I've taken the right (pragmatic) approach. Ah, Claire, just SOME of your judgements, then ..... ;o) Equally some of your postings here take the 'right approach', while some are alarmingly entertaining!! :o)))
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Ah well. There's not a single person on this planet who I would agree with about everything and so I don't expect everyone to agree with everything I say either! That's what makes the world an interesting place to live in!!
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Clairel wrote:H&S does cost money. It can save money sometimes but it can also cost money in time and resources. That is why it is a balance.
I've always had to use judgement. As an inspector it was called 'discretion' now it's just judgement. Am I prepared to stand up in a court of law a defend that. If necessary. InNterestingly, some of my 'judgements' I have discussed with ex-colleagues (inspectors) and they've always thought I've taken the right (pragmatic) approach.
I may not be an inspector anymore but I was trained to use my judgement and I still do. Often I find that it's enforcers who take a amore reasonable line.
I would rather help someone make a difference by getting them on board with the concept than put them off H&S altogether by going in with the letter of the law. I cover my backside where I need to. I think that there is distinct difference between using one's 'discretion' or 'judgement'. I am pleased though that you cover you backside when needed especially if having to stand up in a court of law.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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For once I find myself agreeing with Claire! “Safety is number 1” as a management edict is both pointless and doomed to failure. Victor has expressed a more successful approach when he quotes “it is equal in importance to all other business functions.”
This means both that it should get equal assessment of issues and that, if required, safety can easily be given a specific priority when required. For example, think about recovery after a significant accident.
Whether holding one or other of these opinions actually affects the social image of H&S I am less sure. I am sure either party would see the “failings” of the other view as being a factor but I cannot see any hard evidence to that effect. Poor judgement of a situation which leads to incorrect or inappropriate solutions for that specific situation. Fear of making, being involved in or supporting less than perfect solutions / decisions. These seem much more likely to lead to poor regard in both the world of business and life in general.
It is currently fashionable and acceptable to mock H&S but is it really that bad and is it really having any impact on workplace H&S? Is there any peer reviewed evidence to support a theory that such a public image is significantly affecting workplace H&S?
P48
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Victor
People are still dying at /from work activities. So that element is a non starter!
Sure, fewer now than pre 1974; however there are very many factors that have influenced the decline i.e. traditional heavy manufacturing/engineering industries are no longer at the forefront of our economy. i.e shipbuilding, steel making, coal mining etc.
Jon
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If you think H&S is expensive just try managing the aftermath of a fatality in the workplace - in my experience a fatality in a small business (less than 150 employees), has been fatal for the business.....
Not surprisingly H&S is to those individuals involved in such unforutante situations, is then very much held in high regard.....
just a thought
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Victor
...... and quite a few of these< 150 employee outfits that have "suffered" a fatality start up again wearing a new livery or coat. She named a particular crane hire outfit.
Recall the 1994 Ramsgate Port disaster in which 6 people died. Two Swedish firms, FEAB and FKAB were found guilty of "gross errors" and fined a total of £1m between them - they had denied failing to ensure the safety of passengers. They never paid a penny of the fine.
Earlier this year Luciana Berger - a Liverpool Labour MP - presented a Bill to stop Companies liquidating to avoid health and safety penalties. Unfortunately, the Bill ran out of time.
Labour’s Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna announced that the next Labour Government will act to ensure that when workers are injured or killed at work; employers are not able to avoid justice by deliberately going into administration.
Jon
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John M wrote: Victor
...... and quite a few of these< 150 employee outfits that have "suffered" a fatality start up again wearing a new livery or coat. She named a particular crane hire outfit.
Recall the 1994 Ramsgate Port disaster in which 6 people died. Two Swedish firms, FEAB and FKAB were found guilty of "gross errors" and fined a total of £1m between them - they had denied failing to ensure the safety of passengers. They never paid a penny of the fine.
Earlier this year Luciana Berger - a Liverpool Labour MP - presented a Bill to stop Companies liquidating to avoid health and safety penalties. Unfortunately, the Bill ran out of time.
Labour’s Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna announced that the next Labour Government will act to ensure that when workers are injured or killed at work; employers are not able to avoid justice by deliberately going into administration.
Jon ..... and I can give you instances of where they haven't 'resurfaced', gone, never to be seen again. One Director has become a close friend..... and is now a school cleaner, another works for a gardening company etc, etc. 18years since Ramsgate and no change there then - think we've got a better chance of 'nailing blancmange to a ceiling' before we rely on any Government of the day or any MPs to change things. In the meantime I'll try & continue to answer the original post by giving an opinion based on my experience(s).
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I hope I am not deviating from the original subject, but if we ever wondered why we are in this business of protecting people, saving lives...or whatever, on the local BBC news tonight was a news article regarding a young woman who had just been tragically killed by a window falling from a ground floor shop front. The newscaster described it as a "freak accident", not the words I would choose, I doubt the Judge will be using those words either! http://www.bbc.co.uk/new...-england-london-19421257 Meanwhile, my heart felt sympathies go out to the young lady's family and friends.
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Clairel
Following your comments at #7 about finding a remote island I can't resist mentioning (just in case you haven't seen it) that the latest edition of the IOSH magazine contains an advert regarding Ascension Island. Is this island sufficiently remote for you? Unfortunately, the work does include OS&H so perhaps this might rule it out for you. :-)
Anyhow, if you do decide to head off to a remote island anywhere, hopefully you'll still have internet access and be able to continue your interesting and forthright contributions to this forum.
Also, as for getting away from discussing health & safety, during my time with HSE I got in the habit of suggesting to other inspectors while attending occasional residential training courses that we had a voluntary ban, especially during meals, on discussing H&S. They were usually quite effective because most inspectors seemed more than happy to have a complete break from continually hearing about/discussing H&S matters during the intensive training sessions. Also, as most inspectors had various interests and activities outside work, it wasn't difficult to find H&S-free topics to discuss.
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Graham Bullough wrote:Clairel
Following your comments at #7 about finding a remote island I can't resist mentioning (just in case you haven't seen it) that the latest edition of the IOSH magazine contains an advert regarding Ascension Island. Is this island sufficiently remote for you? Unfortunately, the work does include OS&H so perhaps this might rule it out for you. :-)
Anyhow, if you do decide to head off to a remote island anywhere, hopefully you'll still have internet access and be able to continue your interesting and forthright contributions to this forum.
Also, as for getting away from discussing health & safety, during my time with HSE I got in the habit of suggesting to other inspectors while attending occasional residential training courses that we had a voluntary ban, especially during meals, on discussing H&S. They were usually quite effective because most inspectors seemed more than happy to have a complete break from continually hearing about/discussing H&S matters during the intensive training sessions. Also, as most inspectors had various interests and activities outside work, it wasn't difficult to find H&S-free topics to discuss.
Bob,
Just as well you were there to make the suggestion. Is there anybody left at HSE as human as you seem to be?
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Well, is it the purpose of business to make money? Can safety be the No 1 priority? This, I think, depends. The business I work for has a £100M turnover and employs 3,000 people. It does not exist to make money. It's a Charity, and along with other large charities does need money to survive, but emphatically is not in the business of generating money as an end in itself. It exists to meet its charitable aims, which in our case include the provision of health and social care services. These services have to be safe first and foremost, though safe in this context has a meaning which goes beyond the definition in HASAWA etc. So yes, for our H&SC services safety is a number 1 priority (I think we have two, to be honest, meeting expressed need would be the other), and we don't exist to make money. I think I'd put most NHS Trusts in the same category,
John
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The aim of a business is to deliver what ever that business’s objectives are. In the case of a commercial business it is to make money to pay the shareholders, in the case of a public sector organisation it is to delver the objectives of that organisation, eg NHS –health care, police- law enforcement etc. But organisations have to balance those objectives with a requirements to comply with the law of the land, or we’d all be marketing crack cocaine.
Occupational H&S is just another legal requirement it is also (I believe) a moral goal.
An NHS trust has to balance the H&S of it’s employees against its job which is providing cost effective health care provision. Therefore it cannot provide a zero risk environment for its employees. It has to expose them to all sorts of risks, drugs, radiation, violent patients. It cannot turn around and say, “syringes are dangerous. Let’s not use them,” A&E departments will close on Friday night “cos that is when all of the violent drunks emerge.” All those activities put staff at risk but the law dos not expect zero risk it expects that any risks are identified and managed appropriately. That is the trick that we as H&S professionals should be doing. Unfortunately people don’t seems to understand this and either get obsessed with the idea of zero risk or refuse to acknowledge that any risk exist
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Graham Bullough wrote:Clairel
Anyhow, if you do decide to head off to a remote island anywhere, hopefully you'll still have internet access and be able to continue your interesting and forthright contributions to this forum.
Oh no. If I lived on a remote island I'd have a backlash against health and safety. Mow the lawn in bare feet, stand on chairs and tables, hang out of windows to clean them.....oh hang, I do that already!!! ;-) My island would be a H&S free zone. Survival of the fittest. Darwin awards rule!!! :-) ....I really need a new career don't I!!! Bad day. Roll on the weekend!
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Slightly digressing, but a take from the HSE Chair regarding organisations that claim that safety is their top priority:- Leadership in Health and Safety - The Essential Role of the Board by Judith Hackitt CBE, HSE Chair - Annual Rivers Lecture on 18 March 2009--an extract from the speech :- "............Your behaviour as Board members, the nature of the debate which takes place at Board meetings is crucial to defining the culture of the whole organisation. …………..I have been told on numerous occasions by very senior directors "Safety is our No 1 priority and it's first on every board agenda". I have yet to be really convinced by anyone who has told me that. Safety is very unlikely to be your No 1 priority - staying in business and being successful is - and good health and safety management is integral and fundamental to business success but it is not your No 1 priority - and saying it is creates a credibility gap not just with external stakeholders like me but more importantly with your own employees who know your true motivations and priorities. As for being No 1 item on the agenda of Board meetings - I have experienced too many real life examples of where H&S is No 1 on the agenda but is then dealt with in such a perfunctory way so that people can get down to the stuff that really matters to them!" Source:- http://www.hse.gov.uk/ab...cripts/hackitt180309.htm
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Is the OS&H profession really held in poor regard?
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